It's the dunk tank.
This is where you come to post big-brained hot takes by chuds, libs, or even fellow leftists, and tear them to itty-bitty pieces with precision dunkstrikes.
Rule 1: All posts must include links to the subject matter, and no identifying information should be redacted.
Rule 2: If your source is a reactionary website, please use archive.is instead of linking directly.
Rule 3: No sectarianism.
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Rule 9: if you post ironic rage bait im going to make a personal visit to your house to make sure you never make this mistake again
Libs: "THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION THAT THERE'S GENOCIDE IN XINJIANG, AND IF YOU DARE TO BRING UP THE LACK OF EVIDENCE OF ANY SORT OF ABUSE FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS YOU'LL GET BANNED!!!!"
Also libs: "Didn't you know that 15k of the 40k humans murdered in Gaza were actually terrorists? 
Also, lots of civilians die in wars like the one happening in Gaza, it's sad but inevitable"
Fuuuuuuuuuck this shit.
To actually answer your experiment: the war in Ukraine is an imperialist war between capitalist Russia and a proxy of the capitalist west (mainly US through NATO influence). Russia is on a scary and dangerous trend towards fascism, and I have loved ones directly suffering the consequences of this.
Edit: not just Russia, to be fair. France, Germany, the US (just to name a few western countries) are clearly on a similar and equally worrying trend. And nobody seems to care when other eastern European countries such as Poland literally ban communist parties (as a good fascist would do), and have people in congress using fire extinguishers against jewish symbols during Hannukah.
Anyone who had a look at Lenin's "Imperialism: highest stage of capitalism" and took it seriously, knew that there would be war in Europe as soon as they realized that the means of production of the former USSR were auctioned in a corrupt fashion, and their structure of ownership went not to western hands, but to national interests that collide with those of the US. Since that moment, it was just a matter of time that there would be conflict.
Wow, materialist analysis of a conflict, instead of simplistic "Putin bad" or "NATO bad"? (both of these statements being true). Now, what do you answer?
You're going at it wrong
You need to add some Marvel references and throw in some hamburger analogies so the drone-like WASPs posting this shit can understand
What I don't understand about Russia is, if they're capitalist then why don't they engage in imperialism? The capitalists there have the same interests as capitalists everywhere. Why weren't they folded into the hegemony they way capitalists of Europe were?
As we all know here, I am very stupid
but I'll give this a shot based on my current understanding.
The USSR was not Imperialist, so when it was sliced up and sold to nationalist Capitalists, there were no readily available colonies to exploit, and Western Powers had already divied up the Global South amongst themselves. With little international exploitation, the Russian Bourgeoisie is Nationalist in character, exploiting their internal proletariat. Meanwhile, Western Powers seek the industrial base of Russia, causing constant conflict.
Russia therefore aligns with BRICS after failing to join NATO and take their "share" of Imperialist super-profits. They tried, and were rejected!
I appreciate the response. I need to probably read more about the topic
Same here, hence the preface, but I did feel comfortable enough in said analysis to post my reply.
I think you could also describe Russian foreign policy in the Middle East (namely Syria) as "adventurism." AFAIK they're still occupying parts of Syria with no real exit strategy. While this was done at the request of Syria's government in order to combat ISIS, Putin hasn't let the opportunity pass him by to build oil pipelines and whatnot.
Russia has always been called "the sick old man of Europe" for a reason.
I wouldn't say "Always"
The first popular usage of the phrase was Tsar Nicholas I calling the Ottoman Empire the sick man in the 1800's, and it was ascribed to alot of nations by alot of nations after WWII.
Nowadays Europe is the sick man of Europe.
Putin tried really had to be taken into the fold imperialism. He assisted the west in its looting of Russia. He tried to join NATO but the crypto fascists who run NATO will never forgive the Slavic peoples for destroying the third reich. After getting teased and given the run around for decades he slowly wised up to the game. Putin realized by 2014 they wouldn't let him be a European but until late 2023 he still didn't understand that the west could never be trusted.
I dont think the war in ukraine is an inter imperialist war, it is an anticolonial war started by the national bourgeoisie
Losurdo (2017):
https://redsails.org/losurdo-and-opera/
Ok, now your turn on the experiment. Is there an ongoing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza? Is there an ongoing genocide against Uyghur in Xinjiang?
The US’s “Uyghur genocide” (“cultural” or otherwise) disinformation campaign has already been debunked several times over.
Credit to @davel@lemmygrad.ml
The World Uyghur Congress also supports
's genocide against Palestine so there's that also
Ok, why yes and yes? Where is the evidence that there's an ongoing genocide in China? Please, as I said in the original post in .world, provide any evidence from 2022 onwards.
First link is paywalled, seems to be an interview talking explicitly about what I'm saying: the concerns for genocide have gone down in the last years, likely due to the lack of evidence of the continuation of the claims that Adrian Zenz made some half decade ago. The interviewee seems to be a member of a US government institution (idk I'm not USian), and since the article is paywalled, i can't see any study or any new information on what's going on in Xinjiang.
Second link is simply a link to a debate? Like, it claims without providing any sources or citing any study, that millions of Uyghur are experiencing atrocities. How's that evidence?
Third link quite clearly says "2021", both on the URL and on the article as you open it.
Can you please, bring any new, sourced information, from 2022 onwards, of the current situation of the "Uyghur genocide" in Xinjiang?
https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/chinese-genocide-of-uyghurs-in-xinjiang-continues
https://thediplomat.com/2024/04/erasing-memories-concealing-evidence-chinas-efforts-to-obscure-the-uyghur-genocide/
https://www.globalr2p.org/countries/china/
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2022/9/14/23351153/china-uyghur-muslim-genocide-xinjiang-united-nations
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/15/china-is-committing-a-genocide-why-was-our-foreign-office-planning-to-meet-one-of-the-perpetrators
None of these should have a paywall except The Guardian which I was able to just "X" out of
Ok, I've read through everything you've sent me, and I gotta say, sorry mate but you haven't read any of this. I'm tired of reading articles with claims of genocide but no material evidence of absolutely anything post-2021. It's obvious to me that you're just googling for whatever articles with the headline you want, from 2022 onwards, to support your preconceived notion. I hope you will analyze your position, feel free to read all the articles you've sent me, and go through whichever sources they provide (when they do). I'll sum up what I've found
First link: reverse image search using "tineye" from the cover picture shows "Adobe stock picture, 2019". No mention of new information after 2021 in the whole article.
Second link: the gist of what it says (I'm not quoting literally) is "the ongoing genocide is when you forget about the genocide that did happen according to us". The article shows the WSJ 2019 article that proved reeducation centers were already closed by then. The only post-2021 claim it sources, is that "Uyghur textbooks have been forbidden". Source: Radio Free Asia, 2017. Feel free to look up what "Radio Free Asia" is if you don't know it.
Third link: quote "More than 100,000 Uyghurs are working under conditions that strongly suggest forced labor." Source: none. This claim is pre-covid as I remember (it mentions the cotton fields), never been substantiated. "In February 2024 the Chinese government further expanded regulations to restrict freedom of religion in the Uyghur Region, including through bolstering local surveillance powers and tightening control over religious education and places of worship." Again, unsourced information, just general claims about "tightening control" without any actual evidence. The same claim could be made, for example, about the Spanish government in Catalonia, and I guess nobody here claims genocide is happening there (I say this because I'm Spanish myself).
Fourth link, and I quote: "And now, finally, the United Nations has published a report. A report that says China’s policies “may constitute international crimes, in particular crimes against humanity.” A report that adds nothing new to what we already knew about the crisis, that neglects to call the crisis what it is — genocide — ". No sources of any abuses post-2021 being used, and it quotes the UN report that clearly doesn't state the word "genocide".
Fifth link: no mention to any events post 2021. Few interviews of unsourced and outdated anecdotal claims.
Sorry, but I'm exhausted after this pointless exercise. I learnt nothing new, because there is nothing new. I hope you did learn something on the other hand: if I deny the Uyghur genocide, is because there's no substantial evidence to support it.
I did learn something. You have a movable goal post. On that note, I'm out. Peace be with you
You're right, I did move my goalpost. On my original comment, I asked for evidence from 2022 onwards. I later moved that back to 2021 for the sake of credibility.
My whole point is: we live in the fucking west (presumably, at least I do). If there were the SLIGHTEST THREAD of evidence to point towards genocide in China after 2021, we'd know EVERY SINGLE DETAIL and more. We'd have been spoonfed with it day and night in private and public media, in internet posts, and in every fucking possible way. If you're struggling to find anything that remotely resembles evidence, it's simply because there isn't such a thing.
Go ahead. Go through the eight links you've sent me (as I did), dissect them, and copy-paste the actual post-2021 evidence that is so obvious to you, so that we all can see it and discuss it
See yourself out you complete idiot, abysmal L+ratioed
"Uh oh, the shit I linked without reading doesn't say what I hoped it said."
"Uhh moving goalposts! Strawman! No true Scotsman!
How can you be this disingenuous? He asked for current-ish evidence of genocide with a specific cutoff point, then when through the articles you supplied without reading them yourself, and demonstrated that none of the articles have evidence meeting the cut-off point. You can say that the cut-off point is bad, but he has been very clear and consistent in this whole exchange about what he's looking for
Is this the second or the third "I'm out" comment you've posted during your three hours, 60 comment "I'm not mad, you're all mad" tantrum on this thread?
tbf I think they just mean that they're done with a given user.
Yeah you're probably right.
CW: mentions of SA
Just... that first link alone. Jesus Christ.
This is what the justification this "Genocide Watch" dot com uses to deem there to be an active genocide. Let's just address these
The writer was too lazy to actually tell you who the fuck Adrian Zenz is. He believes the Abrahamic God came to him in a dream to tell him to "destroy the CCP". I am not joking. He authored a book called Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. Here's 2 quotes from that book:
"Through notions of gender equality...the enemy is undermining God’s unique but different role assignments for men and women"
"... anti-discrimination laws put in place throughout the European Union ... forbid employers to discriminate based on gender or sexual orientation. That way, it becomes illegal for churches or Christian organizations to refuse to hire homosexuals into important positions"
Moreover, this guy has not been to China since 2010, doesn't speak Chinese or Uyghur, and is employed by US funded conservative think tank called "The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation". This unhinged homophobic lunatic is the source for "East Turkistan's Uyghur population GROWTH RATE fell by 84%". This in itself is misleading, since Uyghurs were exempt from the One Child Policy, and their population is GROWING, but the RATE of growth has fallen. As with basically every other demographic in China, as things tend to happen as countries transition from developing to developed. But, this article takes it as fact. This is the due diligence this website has but lets hope it gets better from here. Xinjiang's growth rate fell to 6%, which sounds low but the Chinese national average is 3.8%
Second hyperlink to UHRP, which addresses "forced marriage" then goes on with the quote
It's disguised as a second reputable source, but in fact is actually a second (biased) website that's quoting the aforementioned Adrian Zenz. Whom, once again, has not been in China since 2010. Said article hides in Footnote 5 in the Introduction section this little gem: "We use “coerced” and “forced” interchangeably to describe situations in which a person or persons are subjected to force, duress, or threats by a more powerful person or entity in order to compel the weaker party Uyghur-Han intermarriage has been increasing since 2018 due to state promotion of intermarriage"
So, the local government, in the name of promoting social cohesion and unity at a time of racial tension and unrest, provides a one time stimulus for newlyweds of interracial couples, and parades them on TV, which is taken as government sponsorship (sure, I agree with this classification). But Zenz then spins it to "coercion". Oof, big stretch. Then UHRP replaces it with the word "FORCED", because it's a synonym? And then your genocidewatch.com takes it as "mass rape" because forced marriages would imply mass rape if the evidence wasn't, you know, a one time wedding gift.
Alright, 3rd hyperlink to USF on forced sterilization by Rukiye Turdush. Well, according to her own words, she left China in the 90's, what is her source of information of mass steril-
It's just Adrian Zenz again. Your 3rd link is a 3rd article written by someone else on a different platform that goes back to Adrian Zenz. And it links to the article where he "mistakes" a comma and a full stop in an official document and subsequently claims 87% of IUDs in China were installed in Xinjiang (the real number is 8.7%).
The 4th link goes to The Diplomat whose first sentence wildly claims 1,000,000 Han Chinese government officials are being sent to live with Uyghur women in Xinjiang. Lets stop for a moment. Disregard the assumption that the CCP just has a million single men willing to uproot their lives and move to Xinjiang on payroll. The total population of Xinjiang is 25,000,000. The Uyghur population is 12,000,000. Let's assume half of them are women, so 6,000,000. This is an absurd action logically, let alone logistically. What is their source on th- oh it links back to the UHRP article that paraphrases Adrian Zenz.
It once again is recycling Adrian Zenz, this time twice removed instead of once. Ok.
And the last link to GJIA, surely this time it'll be different. It's authored by Rushan Abbas, let's do a quick Google- "Abbas worked as a contractor for the U.S. military interpreting interrogations of Uyghur detainees at Guantanamo Bay through 2002." ok, the author is complicit in war crimes at Gitmo. But maybe she has something of value to say, let's read the article itself. Well, the first link there goes to indiatimes.com... to an interview with Rushan Abbas. Whom amongst us hasn't cited ourselves. Lets see what source she has for forcibly removing children. Taiwan News. Oh boy they're sure to be impartial regarding China, let's see wha-
It's Zenz again. It's always Zenz. It's just one guy. This is easier than getting to Hitler's page from a random Wikipedia article. Zenz claims there's 500,000 children in detention, Taiwannews reports on it, and a war criminal and former US military employee (but I repeat myself) takes that as scripture and says it's undeniable proof China is committing genocide, and genocidewatch.com takes it as proof.
Google search: "literally typing the sentence I want to prove" Copy and Paste every link without reading them
The claims of genocide against Uyghurs originated from
and have been supported by 
since and rejected by most rest of the world.
Fast forward to the present,
starts wailing at Namibia for establishing closer ties with China and the then-president Habe Geingob very openly accusing 
of 
, stating that China never belittles or infantilises them. Of course, Namibia (and South Africa) obviously rejects the claims of genocide against Uyghurs.
So South Africa finally takes the violent Nazi brat
to court and 
immediately goes into 
, screaming at South Africa while Namibia tells the 
Olaf SSchwanz to sit down.
Meanwhile, China is not starving or bombing the Uyghurs, nor have they been forced into an extermination camp the size of municipal Johannesburg. Life expectancy, literacy rates, incomes, education have all increased. Homes now all have electricity, hot water and working toilets, there's widespread access to primary and higher education, medical treatment and is now united with the rest of China by high-speed rail. Infant mortality and crime has dropped significantly. There has not been a terror attack in nearly a decade and the desperation fueled by poverty is no longer present. Xinjiang is also now a highly important hub for mechanised agriculture and industry. The Belt and Road runs through it and in recent times, large quantities of lithium, oil and other valuable minerals have been found in the province. Uyghur culture is also frequently promoted on Chinese media and tourism both domestic and foreign, has grown. Uyghurs also have Chinese citizenship. China has also finally supported South Africa's case in the ICJ.
Hope that clears it up for you. If not, then
Death to America
Did they not have Chinese citizenship before? That's the only part of your comment I found surprising.
I think they just mean in contrast to Israel's policies on Palestinians in the lands it settles.
They always had Chinese citizenship.
Added that because a common redditor talking point is throwing the "settler-colonization" accusation in the mix
Idk why you libs come here an act so smugly superior when you have nothing of substance to retort are arguments with, you just declare their apparent superiority of your opinions and scold us for not realizing their self-evident correctness.
Seriously they're fucking children.
"Oh yea, well what's your take?"
several paragraphs of analysis with historical context and a focus on concrete actions taken by both sides without relying on political statements
"uhhhhhh nuh uh"
They're just as fucking stupid as chuds except that chuds know they're being stupid on purpose to annoy you, libs are dumber than dogshit while also being a smug asshole and infantilizing you.
Yeah "nothing then" is giving to the detailed reply you received
"Respect me while I act like a smug dipshit"
Lol, no. You started acting like a child, and strangers online who know better than you are under no obligation to wipe your stupid ass for you. Read a single book or stop your whining, loser.