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this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2023
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yeah I heavily doubt that last part. What Isreal is doing to civilians is cruel, unacceptable and should end immediately but let's not forget that the Hamas is exclusively targeting Israeli civilians and also is willingly accepting palestenian civilians as casualties...
Hamas is not "exclusively" targeting Israeli civilians. Or do you think they are avoiding military targets? Israel also targets Palestinian civilians, and willingly accepts Israeli civilians as casualties. Literally everything you said applies ten-fold to Israel.
well they are. Of course they also attack military personnel but their attacks on civilians are also directly targeted at them, there are not casualties like the civilians in the israelian attacks, which of course does not justifies these!
Maybe exclusively isn't the right word then
Israel absolutely targets civilians, and if you don't believe that they do, you are willfully blind. There are interviews with soldiers joking about shooting out the knees of protestors. International findings that Israel has deliberately targeted/killed journalists. Hell, they bombed refugees on a road they told them to take! Even if you absolutely refuse to acknowledge any of this, the idea that bombing a hospital or school, when you know that the ratio of civilians to combatants there is 100:1, is somehow morally stronger than if there were no combatants at all, is a ridiculous position to take.
So when a soldier takes the initiative to do something horrible it’s all of israel that it’s at fault. But we need to be very careful about distinguishing between hamas terrorists and palestinians. Don’t you think that seems inconsistent?
The Israeli soldier is enacting violence on behalf of the Israeli state. Hamas is doing the same on behalf of the Palestinian state. Is there a pattern of such behavior from Israeli soldiers? Are there appropriate consequences applied in such cases? The answers are yes, and no, respectively. This isn't just "rogue soldiers", it is a matter of policy.
If Hamas is a "terrorist" organization, then so is the Israeli government. Neither cares to distinguish between combatants and noncombatants. On balance, my sympathy lies with the Palestinian people, relegated to shrinking ghettoes, while a colonial force imports settlers from all over the globe to illegally occupy their homes and farms.
Hamas is also a "state" in that they are a democratically elected political organization that has a monopoly on violence in Gaza. That's the definition of a "state."
However they also engage in terrorism. Kind of a two-fer.
Israel, otoh does not technically engage in terrorism. Instead, their violence against civilians only acts to further the goals and status quo of Hamas. Terrorism by definition is a political act of violence to effect change.
I fail to see how Hamas is a terrorist organization, and the Israeli government isn't. The difference to me seems purely down to PR.
Did you hear the part where he said Hamas has a monopoly on violence in Gaza lmfao
Jesus Christ I actually glossed over that part somehow.
I don’t take anyone calling the descendants of israelites as “settlers” seriously. This is their ancestral home. It doesn’t matter if you reject reality and substitute with your own. There is so much evidence that it’s really imposible to deny it and be taken seriously.
Seriously think about what you are saying. Apply that logic literally anywhere else and see how ridiculous it is. There are people being paid to settle in Israel, whose ancestors left that land 1000 years ago! The idea that such a person has any right to displace someone whose family his been living there for generations is patently absurd. I have some ancestors that left Ireland about 100 years ago. Do I have the right to go to Ireland and commandeer someone's home?
Hamas goal is to kill all jews. Israels goal is to kill all Hamas fighters. That doesn't add up with your claim.
It is certainly convenient to frame this conflict purely in terms of racial hatred. In that case you may want to take a look at all the racist and exterminationist rhetoric that comes from Israeli politicians and settlers. Israel's ultimate goal is annexation of all Palestinian territories.
That is how Hamas frames it. I wouldn't consider it convenient from Israel's pov.
It's very convenient for Israel to pretend that Hamas has no reason other than racism to hate Israel.
https://youtu.be/rD7NI0tGbp8?si=LgHAREbj4dnXMpc4
It could both be that he told them to avoid civilians AND that fighters still attacked and killed civilians.
That being said, there is actually some evidence to sugeest that a number of October 7 deaths were caused by the IDF itself handling the situation badly and with little regard to the lives of the residents of one kibbutz. According to some eye witnesses, the soldiers who responded to the attack caused a number of homes to be demolished, and later bodies of civilians were found under the rubble. This is more consistent with what we see Israel doing in Gaza with no regard to the lives of Gazans nor the hostages.
Don't get me wrong though, of course everyone will say they ordered their troops to not kill civilians. Even Israel does it and look at the result. Hamas shouldn't have held any civilian hostages, especially not children and elderly that need care they are unlikely able to provide.
Issue is the Hamas are not an regular military force which makes it hard to target them, they are terrorists and exclusively targeting civilians. Every death on the 7th of october is related to them in the end, because they have decided to actively engage on civilians.
Can you provide evidence that they exclusively target civilians given the fact that they have mostly attacked armed forces since the kibbutz was taken back?
Hamas are a lot of shitty things but this claim is factually false. And because it's factually false, I can't consider it much more than propaganda.
you want evidence from me that the attacks on the 7th of october were exclusively targeted at civilians?
Read my comment again, I'm talking about AFTER that.
How about every rocket Hamas has fired towards an area that isn't a military base. That should give you several thousand data points...
So the IDF handeld a situation very badly and killed a number of civilians, the cause of all that would still be the terrorist act on civlians by the hamas. It does not alter any of the points I made earlier:
The Hamas and any other terrorist group are rabid dogs, they need to go if we ever want a free Palestine and (!) a free Israel.
What Bullshit propaganda are you on? If israel kills it's own civilians it's their fault. They can't just spray fire their tanks and machine guns into their own Kibbutzes and then blame Hamas lmao.
Israel's response to Hamas is disproportionate and careless on purpose. There is blood on many hands, but those now being starved and dying of disease and bombed hospitals is 100% Israel's action opposed by the rest of the world. Almost Every specialist, every human rights official, every person who is qualified to comment on this is saying Israel is causing civilian deaths, crossing lines, and committing collective punishment. We are not talking about a few thousands here and there that the IDF tried to protect but couldn't... We are talking about 10k deaths, 2k under the rubble. This is not collateral damage.
okay, was not the point of our discussion and I did not say otherwise but thanks for sharing it I guess...
I tend to disagree on the collective punishment point, but that's fine everybody can have his or her opinion :)
consistently moving the goalposts is one of the core hallmarks of a bad faith argument. you handled it very well!
Yeah Israel starving people is totally not like the goddamn holocaust. /s
"Opinions", how convenient it is to have them while people just die on the hands of Israel.
Okay that went very fast into holocaust relativism... no thank you, I don't want to be part of this discussion anymore, let's end it here on a polite note.
And just to make it clear, as a german I learned, "the Holocaust was a genocide during World War II in which Nazi Germany, aided by its collaborators, systematically murdered approximately 6 million European Jews" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) therefor I find it highly inappropriate to use this very term for the situation in the middle east or as a comparison to it.
Sorry, if Israel doesn't want holocaust relativism it should stop doing very holocausty things like starving people and killing medical patients and the medics and the journalists, god I'm out of fucking words.
"Never again" includes Palestinians. If it doesn't today, then it's not living up to its meaning.
or maybe you just should stop holocaust relativism 🤷♂️
Maybe you shouldnt sympathize with Nazi's. Did they teach you Germans nothing in school?
or maybe Israel just should stop repeating the holocaust on another group of people.
being shitty and inflammatory is really gonna convince people you’re on the side that cares
Look buddy, if you can't see that this collective punishment and against international law then I can't help you.
Buddy, if you can’t proofread a single sentence comment then I don’t know that I want your help.
Meh
The soldiers probably made it all worst, but Hamas 100% caused civilian casualties. Even if Hamas members didn't cause them, remember that Hamas asked anyone who had a weapon and was willing to storm the border with them to go in. There are videos of them dragging around wounded civilians and soldiers.
This is all fine except Hamas does not exclusively target civilians. It has been only targeting military vehicles and tanks since the incursion in Gaza (not counting the rockets dropped on Israeli areas, that don't seem to be causing any casualties).
And sadly almost every death since October 7 has been caused by Israel directly killing civilians in Gaza.
We can twist the truth all we want but Hamas aren't blanket terrorists (and I quite dislike them and their dumb strategy). Let's not romanticize calling them some extrwme thing removed from details and context
I know that Hamas doesn't exclusively target civilians. Hamas as the government of Gaza probably wouldn't risk their public image by instructing it's militants to target civilians, but their militants did cause civilian casualties and some of them looked like they were out for vengeance.
The rockets that Hamas fires are primitive and cannot be guided, and sometimes wind or other factors cause them to miss their targets. They have been targeting nearby civilian areas after giving warnings (lol), and while they are not as much of a terrorist organization as the IDF, they still have committed acts of terrorism on multiple occasions.
wow.
Well, I am sorry, but calling yourself a defense force doesn't make your terrorism more acceptable. Your forces still target civilians, take and torture hostages, terrorize people in peaceful areas, arm and defend criminals, and target and suppress journalists. Having a court acquit your heinous crimes doesn't make them more justifiable either.
I hope this is understandable.
My bad, looks like that response was meant for the other person who claimed they only target civilians.