It sounds like rather, you’re confusing capitalization for capitalism. You don’t need to be capitalist to have capital, you do need capital to have industry/production.

I don't have the energy for this atm so will try to reply later (if anyone else wants to help me out go for it). But just... No, IMO (as said a bit out of it atm) this sounds incorrect.

Limited capitalization =/= capitalism, I agree (Dengism, or the NEP, etc. are examples of that). But I think we'd need to define what we mean by "capitalization" (the term which I was using since @BashfulBob@hexbear.net used it).

The definition from a quick google alone as an easy (+lazy, as said not quite up for it entirely- someone save me pls ) answer would be essentially... Accounting.

Thats understandably, not the context we were using (maybe innacurately, idk) the term "capitalization" for, given how it was first introduced into discussion (by @BashfulBob@hexbear.net ).

I was using it (and put it alongside the term in parentheses many times) as essentially- "financialization."

I guess where I'm getting at is "financialization" is not a requirement for industrialization or production.

Also, of course, production (and thus actual value) and trade and/or the division of labor ("the actual economy") and all can exist without capital, and predate capital. And I'd go so far as to say that capital (not just capitalism- but capital) is not a prerequisite for industrialization, though it is certainly the most efficient and viable mechanism to promote it thus far.

And even if we were to say that "all industry/production requires capital" - that does not mean that industry/production = capital. The two things are different, with the latter meant as something akin to a unit of measurement (and exchange) or the former.

As Marx said:

"Capital is dead labour, that, vampire-like, only lives by sucking living labour, and lives the more, the more labour it sucks"

While I wouldn't claim that labor = production/industry (though it certainly has far more correlation than capital and production), I think it demonstrates my point...

There's no reason the US can't onshore its industry again... But the process (and the products) will be prohibitively expensive, such that without astronomical subsidies (which the US certainly is pumping out, money printed go brrr) the only viable markets for such goods will be captive markets.

Rebuilding the industrial infrastructure, etc. will be hilariously overpriced. Rebuilding the ecosystem (base of engineering, R&D, etc) will be hilariously overpriced. The labor costs will be hilarious overpriced (because the workers' living expenses will be depressingly overpriced- Yankkkeestan and the collective west is expensive as all hell). The valuations, final cost of production, etc etc... will all be hilariously overpriced. And each and every capitalist will... "capitalize" appropriately on the situation to whittle out their cut.

What I'm saying is- China will be building a bridge in a few months to a year, and often doing it under budget and generally with great quality. Africa, Asia, Latin America will build their bridges, and it will take (varying amounts of time), and it will cost considerably less than it would in the US or anywhere in the west for comparable quality. Same with Russia, etc.

The US will use its money printer to magic up the funds to build a bridge (or even just repair it lol) and will wind up going massively over budget, will probably not have completed it within a decades time, will cut corners here and there (and won't even maintain it properly... Because everything in their system is so overpriced), and will have what may as well be infinite grift and corruption (probably legalized in one form or another). All the "capitalization" adds up lol...

Replying rather than editing on extra to my comment but- very simplified (and with the disclaimer that I'm no scholar and I'm literally typing on my phone):

Capital =/= production or the real economy.

Capital =/= value (though it is a unit meant to approximate value and transfer it)

Imagine if the US creates a missile. Let's say the production cost and valuation is... Uh, 100$usd. Let's say that Russia produces the exact same missile, functionally and materially identical (though in reality Russian missiles are better than western crap because of capitalization, lol). It's valuation and production cost is.. 25$usd.

What is the difference, exactly? What is the 75$ difference? As a really shitty and lazy and probably somewhat flawed simplification- this is the "capital," the "capitalization" you're talking about.

This is how you get wonderful capitalistic... Capitalizations, like say, the US army spending over 36$k per garbage bin (look it up... Lmao). This is how you get the world's most expensive and certainly the least cost-efficient healthcare system on the planet (and probably in all of history). This is how regurgitated capital ("capitalizations" or "financialization," if you will) in the form of money lending, then interest paid to service the loan, and so on and so forth- metaphorical circlejerks of debt and transactions ("services") get measured as """productive economic activity."""

Anyways yeah, that's about it (heavily and shittily simplified). Once again I heavily recommend looking up prof. Michael Hudson, prof. Richard Wolff, and the Geopolitical Economy Report.

You're mixing up "capitalism" and "production/industrialization." The two are not one and the same.

China and India are recapitalizing to good effect. Russia is recapitalizing

China and Russia are if anything, doing the exact opposite of what you claim; while Russia may be structurally and politically capitalist (and while China retains its market socialism, which is another spiel in and of itself) the developments ongoing in both are not the capitalization (privatization, financialization) of their economies, but rather the submission of capital to the interests of the state and the public good (in Russia's case, its national security) and towards actual production.

What part of China's cracking down on corruption and speculation (engaging in the controlled demolition of its real estate markets for instance) and engaging in even further state-led development sounds like "capitalization" to you? What part of Russia's own return to 5-year plans, of its reindustrialization (of which a large part is the MIC- which by and large is state enterprise, not private), of the cracking down on the corruption and influence of the oligarchs (now that the west has so helpfully neutered them), and the return to domestic production and development rather than financial instruments and other grifts geared towards the transfer of wealth to the west sounds like "re-capitalization," or rather, "further capitalization?" (Considering that Russia still is decidedly capitalist).

Meanwhile, the UK is just six banks in a trench coat and their economy is disintegrating underneath them.

Because the real "economy," or rather everything people associate with and can tangibly interact with, was never truly capital (though capital certainly has considerable correlation, as a system built over it). The British economy is disintegrating because the "capital" you seem to assume Britain is lacking in, is actually present in overabundance (and was developed relative to the size and influence of the former empire and what plunder it could obtain). Britain is literally choking on, and drowning in its capital (inflation), while it's bourgeoisie, to preserve the value of their capital (which has no inherent value in its own right), bleed the British society and true economy further and further dry, through their endless pursuits of their bottom lines, through their rentier behavior (landlordism, monopolistic behaviors/oligopolies, and through extracting what could be described as "rent" from the state in the forms of corporate welfare- particularly the MIC- regulatory capture and the maintaining of captive markets, and copious tax breaks). And of course, they also preserve their value of their capital, by taking it out of the sinking ship- by moving it into actual tangible assets, exchanging it for the currencies/capital of nations whose economies are not going into freefall, and which are not ridiculously overpriced (capitalized) bubbles ripe to burst.

Saudi Arabia is trying to build out capital in excess of its oil drilling and desalination systems

Saudi Arabia is another nation absolutely swimming in capital accumulated from its oil revenues; they have no need of ""building"" capital, they have no lack of it. What the Saudis are trying to do, is convert said capital into tangible assets and production- ie. actual value (of which capital is just an approximation and floating measurement of). They built what capital they have, off of such (natural) assets (obviously, oil), and are trying to prepare themselves for the transition past it, as well as develop actual productive forces outside of oil extraction (as that is the actual wealth of the nation- not capital, which is a fickle, unstable, and abstract measure of value).

I could go on further, but basically- capital =/= production. And Americans work, sure (a immense amount of it "bullshit jobs," as from the sounds of it you're aware). But the expansion of US capital and imperialism across the globe, the network of American "capitalization," if you will- has literally priced the American working class out of existence (they still exist obviously- but it's a miserable and withering thing).

The USD is kept artificially overvalued, allowing the US (particularly it's corporations, but also the citizenry that have increasingly moved to "bullshit" largely unproductive jobs) inordinate purchasing power, something the US state and corporations abuse the utter hell out of .

US labor, being paid in the USD, is artificially overvalued- which is to say, it is prohibitively expensive and uncompetitive, and what manufacturing, agriculture, etc. exists is generally heavily subsidized so as to keep the gears of empire turning. Goods and services within the US are artificially overvalued (overpriced) due to the "capitalization" of the economy as well- everything in the US is "capitalized" to hell and back (and it is no more productive for it, oftentimes less). Tuition, healthcare, housing, food, consumer goods, etc... there are layers upon layers of "capitalization" in the US, of course not least of all through the "capitalization" of immense consumer and state debt (line goes up). None of this is "competitive" or "appropriately valued-" rather the opposite- and thus even marshalling the productive forces of the nation and moving past all the "capitalization" is a cartoonishly expensive and arduous hurdle.

I could go on further, but I'd simply recommend looking up the talks on economics on YT (or their writings, etc) by professors Michael Hudson and Richard Wolff, as well as the Geopolitical Economy Report among others for more information to set you on the right path.

IMO points #1 and #2 are key reasons why #3, as you describe it (with appropriate skepticism) isn't going to happen. The parasitism of deeply established rentiers (of industry) and the hyper-financialization is not going to come to a halt, not without what can only be described as a death to the system (it could be resuscitated after- but all these contradictions would frankly need to be purged, a politically painful and systematically tumultuous process, to allow for such developments).

The world reserve currency status and the consequences of its decades-long abuse/"cheap money" (or rather, toilet paper money, the ubiquitousness and cartoonish levels of debt and speculation, etc) is also a noose around AmeriKKKa's neck in this regard. There is no soft landing, and there will be no reining in the system, not without the destruction of the wealth of the capitalist classes and of the global economic system the US has made itself the center of (though it is unsustainable in its own right).

As for #4... sure, I agree entirely. And thus personally I hope to get the hell out of the imperial cores before the death camps and/or pogroms begin, if they do. But thankfully however, the rest of the world- the overwhelming majority of the world- is moving past the west's hateful, racist, genocidal, and deranged system, and will leave them in the dust if they cannot progress forward (IMO the west will not- not for a long time, anyways, the social, ideological, institutional, etc. contradictions of 500 years, and the contradiction of settlerism in particular, shall be a hurdle that will take a very long time to be overcome, if ever- though I do expect it will happen eventually in the long run).

The west will embrace fascism, and likely will try to take all the rest of humanity down with it if they can't keep them as their slaves. It sounds dismal, but that's my expectations for the western regimes, anyways- whether the masses, or even those within the system with the decency or self-preservation to resist and break free from this course, will be able to recognize in full just what path they are headed down and prevent it is another matter.

But- in response to #4- my answer is- "yeah, so what?" Not to be callous, but this is the path these societies were almost certainly going to go down from the beginning; this is the great hurdle they must overcome (that they created for themselves). I am not disregarding the suffering that it will cause (which I will likely also face, and so will many of my loved ones). But this is still progress of an overwhelmingly positive nature for the rest of the world- just because the slave masters (the "international community") might tear themselves apart and get homicidal, does not mean that the slaves (the overwhelming global majority) should wait on their liberation and the improvement of their lives till it is convenient; it does not mean that the global south should continue bending over to western parasitism (which is in fact becoming more and more deranged and intolerable, as shown with their attempts at "Ukrainizing" countries like the Philippines and Armenia and their march to WW3, with their blatant genocide in Gaza and their constant provocations and meddling reaching a fever pitch across the globe, their attempts to destroy the peace, prosperity, and development of ASEAN, of Africa through its trade and cooperation with BRICS, etc...).

If the west wishes to go fascist (which I don't doubt they most likely will), if they want to destroy all of humanity if they cannot re-establish global slavery, unquestioned imperialism, and omnipresent hegemony as they desire- that's a hurdle that humanity will have to face. And humanity, the collective humanity, will either win (whether those in the west wish to consider themselves a part of it, or bring destruction upon their heads to the bitter end is another matter) or go extinct, but either way the ordeal will have been- if not necessary, absolutely inevitable (because the west and even the western masses, if they play along with their regimes, will have done everything to ensure it was so).

The world will free themselves from AmeriKKKa and the league of western imperialists- they will free themselves from the petrodollar's parasitism, from western enforced monopolies, from theft and coercion, from the US' salami-slicing tactics of moving ever-closer to a "winnable nuclear war" and the effective genocide or enslavement of the entire planet. Whether the western populations are ready for such a change is irrelevant, and they can either get with the program (and they will have every chance of doing so- right up until the call comes to launch the nukes) or die rejecting the most basic decency and humanity.

That's my take on it, anyways. All the west, the "garden peoples," have left (as a simplification- they have much, but their system has reached the end of the road and they can only try to threaten the world to prevent it from moving further) is terrorism. And all the west, the "garden," can accept, is the complete subservience and enslavement of the world, to return to the unipolar moment and not only that, but worse- to gradually balkanize and de-industrialize all the nations of the global south, so as to never allow such a challenge to their "garden" to arise again.

All they offer is terrorism, and their reward, to those who submit- as Russia's experience post-dissolution, Ukraine's current experience, etc. and that of countless others have shown- the reward for submission is slavery and death, the loss of everything of value and of all hope. The global south (and the masses of the west, if they can get their heads out of their asses to realize it) truly has nothing to lose but their chains.

Extremely critical support to Trump for destroying the AmeriKKKan empire

What is it with westerners and assuming they know more about Japan than actual Japanese people?

Not Japanese (ethnic Chinese) but it hits a nerve (not your comment, no worries) from a recent convo I had myself tbh.

Westerners will jump to the worst assumptions regardless, but there's also never a shortage of self-hating tokens seeking white approval. Not just for Asians, it's obvious to anyone looking it's an issue for all non-white/non-westerners honestly. Westerners just gobble that shit up, the only thing they love more than shitting on other races/nationalities is finding self-hating compradors to do the dirty work of saying the most ignorant or bigoted shit for them (and not just kiss, straight up deepthroat imperialist boot in the process)

Idk, the guillotine is a egalitarian way at least. The world could use a whole lot more guillotines.

Based. Centrists more than anyone else deserve every bit of shit they get

Citizencon

How do they even have enough fans to fill a convention after all these years? lmao

Honestly, in half the country (the east) Russian is if anything more indigenous than Ukrainian is.