this post was submitted on 06 Jun 2024
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I keep seeing this instance is overrun with tankies so hey, lets do an informal survey like I've seen on hexbear

respond with YES or NO in the first line of your comment and i'll tally everything in a couple of days, lets say I'll try and collect everything on the sunday the 9th (10+gmt sorry)

not sure thisll work, be nice, have fun

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[–] davel@lemmy.ml 54 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Tankie is a floating signifier. If you ask twenty liberals what a tankie is you’ll get

  1. Twenty different answers, and
  2. Several people upset at being called a liberal because they don’t have even a Wikipedia-level understanding of liberalism or socialism.
[–] EchoCT@lemmy.ml 25 points 6 months ago (1 children)

100 percent agreed. They'll group anything too far left of them under the same name. Don't care anymore. If they want to whine then fuck it, I'll wear the term.

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[–] pelletbucket@lemm.ee 44 points 6 months ago (6 children)

no. I'm probably a communist but authoritarianism can fucking shove it

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 16 points 6 months ago (5 children)

Fredrich Engels, 1872: On authority

Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is. It is the act by which one part of the population imposes its will on the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannons — by the most authoritarian means possible; and the victors, if they do not want to have fought in vain, must maintain this rule by means of the terror which their arms inspire in the reactionaries. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if the communards had not used the authority of the armed people against the bourgeoisie? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach them for not having used it enough?

Therefore, we must conclude one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don’t know what they’re talking about, in which case they are only sowing confusion; or they do know, in which case they are betraying the proletarian movement. In either case, they serve reaction.

[–] friendly_ghost@beehaw.org 19 points 6 months ago

Found the tankie! ☝️

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[–] Fondots@lemmy.world 33 points 6 months ago

I'm not from this instance, so probably not totally relevant to this poll, that said

NO, I'm not a tankie.

I think, however, it's worth considering that a lot of people that could be considered tankies probably wouldn't apply the term to themselves, and that could skew the results of your poll. First of all, tankie is sort of a pejorative term, and many wouldn't want to apply it to themselves for that reason alone. Secondly a lot of people just may not consider themselves to be a tankie, and genuinely do not recognize their own tankieness.

I don't think I'm the guy to come up with a definitive checklist of what does or does not make someone a tankie, but for the sake of getting the conversation going (and feel free to disagree with me here, I welcome the discussion) I think two of the biggest hallmarks of being a tankie are

  1. Communism- not all communists are tankies, but all tankies at least claim to subscribe to some sort of communist ideology.

  2. Authoritarianism- tankies either are authoritarians themselves, or are willing to support or overlook authoritarians as long as they see them as being in some way opposed to "the west"/capitalism/etc.

I think the authoritarianism aspect is going to trip some people up trying to answer this truthfully. A lot of authoritarians probably wouldn't consider themselves authoritarians, most people like to think they're standing for freedom, justice, liberty, equality, etc. even if their actual actions tell another story. Don't get me wrong, there are people out there who are openly authoritarian and proud of it, but a lot of authoritarians are a little brainwashed to the point they've lost sight of what they're actually supporting (take a look at the MAGA crowd, they think they're about free speech and anti-censorship but want to keep books they don't like out of libraries, they think they're about small government but want to regulate what kind of medical care you can get, they think they stand for law and order but also proudly proclaim that they are all domestic terrorists and have a convicted felon as their poster boy)

And politics are messy, full of moral grey areas and times where you have to choose between the lesser of two evils, make uncomfortable alliances, difficult choices, and kick some cans further down the road to deal with later while you tackle the current crisis. It's not always easy or feasible to draw a crisp line in the sand and say "we will not ally with/support/turn a blind eye to these authoritarian regimes," sometimes you have to play a little bit of the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" game if you want to actually make any progress against that enemy, or you may have to prioritize and deal with something else before you deal with them. There is a whole lot of grey area to explore about when, why, how, how long, and how much you can support or ignore them before you're advancing their cause as much or more than your own.

I think there's probably some tankies who have been taken for a ride on the propaganda wagon and don't truly realize how authoritarian they are, and there's others who have justified it, thinking that they're only going to be/support authoritarians temporarily to achieve a specific goal and will pivot away from that later, but have gone too far or keep moving the goalposts.

Couple last thoughts from me.

There can always be bad actors who are falsely claiming to be (or not to be) tankies for their own purposes. Not really much you can do about that.

Personally, a lot of the criticism I've seen about tankies here has been directed towards the mods and admins, not necessarily the rank average users.

[–] Pieresqi@lemmy.world 27 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (18 children)

What's the definition of tankie ?

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[–] Nakoichi@hexbear.net 25 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (4 children)

No.

That said most MLs are my comrades anyway left-unity-3

Also liberals still always call me a tankie anyway so idk it doesn't mean anything anymore.

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[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 25 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (9 children)

YES

They would have burned me as a heretic in the middle ages.

  • Carl Jung

Just like calling someone a "witch" or heretic in the middle ages, a "barbarian", or "savage", or "commie" or "pinko" in the 20th century, these terms are less about the actual meaning, and more about a demonization, scapegoating, or a power relation between the dominant class, and a group they seek to malign and rally their people around.

Creating a useful enemy promotes group bonding, unity, a sense of strengthened identity, and self worth.

"Tankie" had a meaning that generally referred to non-pacifist leftists (or those that agreed with using violence to defend socialist projects), but now it just means, "any leftist I don't like".

It functions in the exact same way that "commie" did in the the McCarthy era, as a xenophobic and western-supremacist scapegoating of socialist countries, and an internal purging of the working-class communist movement.

It's additionally useful because it deters people from reading or engaging with the worldwide communist / socialist movement.

If someone uses this term, this is what they're doing without realizing it:

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[–] CloutAtlas@hexbear.net 23 points 6 months ago (10 children)

"Tankie" in the traditional sense of someone who uncritically supports the USSR in the handling of 1956's uprising? Probably not.

While Kruschev's use of tanks in 1956 was heavy handed, the Hungarian alliance with the Axis in WWII and participation of Operation Barbarossa, lingering fascist sympathisers and nationalists remained in Hungary.

This coupled with the Communist Party of Hungary's less than equitable redistribution of land/castles/other properties earlier in the 1950's (favouring giving properties to ranking CPH members instead of distributing it to the proletariat equally). This created resentment for the Party, and an image of the Communists as no better than the Monarchy that came before or the Fascists that came after.

The Hungarian uprising had elements of fascist sympathisers, monarchists, bourgeoisie, etc but also legitimate critics of the handling of the situation. It never should have come to that, and a more educated/self critical Communist Party in Hungary could have prevented things from getting that far. The people should have benefitted a lot more from a better redistribution of wealth.

The above issues coupled with Soviet distrust of Hungarians (since they did invade the Soviet Union in the 40's) led to a swift and harsh reaction towards the uprising, seeing it as just a reactionary revolt.

Now, am I a tankie in the Reddit redefinition, of anyone that critically supports Cuba, China, Vietnam and their style of government? Yeah, I suppose I am. This is no more radical a position than Malcolm X or the Black Panthers who also supported the late USSR, China and Cuba.

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[–] Palacegalleryratio@hexbear.net 22 points 6 months ago (5 children)

NO

Tankie is a meaningless word. If you point out China has undeniably made progress under communism, you’re a tankie. If you point out Stalin wasn’t the evil dictator westerners make him out to be (even though it’s disproven by the literal CIA itself) you’re a tankie, if you think capitalism is causing problems in the USA you’re a tankie. If you criticise US or NATO foreign policy you’re a tankie. If you criticise the Republicans you’re a Tankie. If you criticise the Dems, guess what also a tankie. If you think that the USSR and the PRC are/were perfect little angels that never made any mistakes or did anything wrong ever then you’re also a Tankie.

It’s just too broad a term for me or anyone to identify with any way. It’s not an ideology. It’s a dumb insult to dismiss the opinions of others you disagree with without having to engage with their point at all or critically analyse your own beliefs in any meaningful way.

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 21 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Organizing a union? Pushing for higher wages? Defending your people from reactionary aggression?

Not voting? Don't hate the US's main enemies, like Russia, China, Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, Syria, Palestine, the DPRK?

Believe it or not, tankie.

[–] Palacegalleryratio@hexbear.net 13 points 6 months ago

Eat beans instead of meat for protein? No trial, no jury, straight to being a Tankie. Not eat a specific brand of beans I.e. Goya? Believe it or not also a Tankie. We have the best diets in the world.

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[–] AFC1886VCC@reddthat.com 22 points 6 months ago (1 children)

No. I'm a non-tendency leftist. But I disagree with tankies being labelled as "fascists". They're not. They're just Marxist-Leninists/Stalinists and I find their views pretty consistent with orthodox ML-ism.

I agree with this. I see a lot of people erroneously label tankies "fascist," but fascism is an entirely distinct ideology with different end goals.

I also wouldn't call myself a tankie, although I've received some nasty DMs calling me one, which is somewhat humorous to me since I identify most with anarchism. I feel like some people think a tankie is defined as "anyone to the left of Ronald Reagan."

[–] Tabitha@hexbear.net 21 points 6 months ago (4 children)

I wish stalin drove tanks straight into west berlin, then france, then the UK, then atlantis, then NYC, then chicago, then seattle, then anchorage, then Tokyo, then Seoul, then Beijing, then KFC/tacobell.

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[–] HakFoo@lemmy.sdf.org 20 points 6 months ago

Yes, although I personally prefer "central planning enthusiast".

I think we're approaching the point where the word gets taken back by the community it was used to malign, if not there already. "

[–] frippa@lemmy.ml 19 points 6 months ago (10 children)

YES

Everybody to the left of biden is considered a tankie nowdays, and I'm proud of being to the left of (and opposed to) genocide enablers.

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[–] sleeplessone@lemmy.ml 19 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

Yes.

The last time I smiled was on August 19th, 1991. I wear a dirty ushanka at all times, do not shave, and only take cold sponge baths because hot running water is bourgeoisie decadence. Every day at exactly noon I have the same meal of an expired Maoist MRE I store in a pit covered in old issues of a revolutionary newspaper. I sleep in a bed made of flags from every failed revolution so that they are never forgotten. In the evenings I stare at a picture of vodka by candlelight, but I do not allow myself to drink because there is nothing to celebrate. Every local org has banned me after I attempted to split it by assassinating the leadership. There is no plumbing in my house I shit in a brass bucket with a picture of Gonzalo and Deng french kissing in the bottom of it. My house is actually an overturned T34 in an abandoned junkyard in Wisconsin. I have a single friend in this world and it is a tapeworm named Bordiga that I met after ingesting spoiled borscht on 9/11 in the ruins of building 7 (I blew it up after finding that a nominally leftist NGO inside of it wasn’t sufficiently anti-imperialist, the attacks on the world trade center were a perfect revolutionary moment for me to enact direct praxis against liberalism). My source of income is various MLM schemes in the former soviet bloc that have been running for so long no one remembers who I am, they just keep sending money. I have not paid taxes since McGovern lost the Democratic nomination for president and my faith in electoralism died more brutally than my childhood dog after it got into an entire jar of tylenol. I own 29 fully automatic rusted kalashnikovs and three crates of ammunition entirely incompatible with them or any other firearms I own. My double PHD in marxist economics and 18th century Swiss philosophy (required to understand Engels) sits over the fireplace of my home, my fireplace is a salvaged drum from a 1950s washing machine that was recalled for locking children inside of it. I chose that washing machine model on purpose because I am anti-natalist. During the latest BLM protests I firebombed a Nikes outlet in the middle of a peaceful candlelit vigil. William F Buckley and I wrote hatemail to one another for 47 years until my final letter gave him an aneurysm. The only water I drink is from puddles. George Lucas and I dropped acid together during an MKULTRA southern baptist summer camp and he went on to write the movie Willow about our time together. The best way to test whether an electrical wire is live is to drool on it and shrimp salad is racist. You can make an IED out of potassium and the instructions are online thanks to Timothy McVey, who was actually a committed antifascist communist slandered by the deep state as part of operation condor. Every time a liberal files a restraining order against me, I carve a mark into the wall. I am running out of walls. When Amerika finally collapses I will be ready to lead the revolution. I am very smart and people like being around me.

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[–] krolden@lemmy.ml 18 points 6 months ago (2 children)
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[–] inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago

Anarchist. I look forward to being kill by tankies moments after the revolution.

[–] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 17 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

yes

but no in the way you mean

[–] 2Password2Remember@hexbear.net 17 points 6 months ago

on the one hand: there is no such thing as a tankie, the word doesn't mean anything besides "person to the left of me whom i disagree with"

on the other hand: hell yeah i'm a tankie

Death to America

[–] Fidel_Cashflow@lemmy.ml 16 points 6 months ago (5 children)

I am to the left of Ronald Reagan. A lot of people would classify that as tankie.

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[–] FungiDebord@hexbear.net 16 points 6 months ago

No I'd rather be morally righteous and sit on my ass and blame "the left" as the world collapses.

[–] macabrett@lemmy.ml 15 points 6 months ago

A ridiculous question. "Tankie" isn't a term anyone self-identifies with, it's mostly a term used by liberals to hurl at anyone to the left of them or anyone who agrees with western foreign policy. The survey results will be as meaningless as the term "tankie" itself.

[–] BasementParty@hexbear.net 15 points 6 months ago

Yes

Stalin is cool. stalin-approval

[–] Binette@lemmy.ml 14 points 6 months ago (13 children)

Idk. I'm really bad at history and such cause I never pay attention. I used to take everything I saw on the internet at face value, so I decided to slow down on current news. Doesn't help that I like programming and video games a lot, so I don't spend a lot of time thinking about world events.

I just like communities that are tolerant and won't let people bully the lgbt or the disabled. It feels less tiring.

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[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 14 points 6 months ago

No, i'm not a tankie, i wasn't even born yet in 1956 not to mention i'm not British.

[–] D61@hexbear.net 14 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Does it count if I've actually driven tanks?

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 14 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (3 children)

Maybe?

What the heck is a tankie, anyways? Every person I have asked has had a different answer, and the vast majority of these definitions don't really fit any major communities on Lemmy, not even Hexbear or Lemmygrad.

I have been called a tankie for numerous reasons, like saying that people should read Marx, to saying the US is a net negative on global stability.

Is being a Marxist sufficient for being a tankie? What about a Marxist-Leninist? Are only Dengists tankies? Is Anarchism the only non-tankie leftist position? I've even seen Anarchists be called tankies over on Lemmy.world, which is currently undergoing Red Scare-era anti-leftist witch hunts (like return2ozma's recent ban for "bad-faith spam").

I think this question needs a definition first. If you ask 10 different people what a "tankie" is, you'll get 11 different answers.

[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 21 points 6 months ago (1 children)

This is the crux of it: where once there was some kind of definition, now it's just a snarl word for "leftist who makes points I can't refute."

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 20 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Yep, it's Lemmy's Red Scare.

I am curious if there is going to be a schizm between .world aligned instances and Hexbear/grad/.ml aligned instances, where .world sees an eventual gradual exodus of leftists as they recieve a steady influx of liberals from Reddit.

Lemmy's own multipolar world.

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 14 points 6 months ago (8 children)

I just don't see the point of using lemmy unless they're a leftist in the first place.

Reddit already exists, and has a much bigger userbase that's already pro-US and heavily anti-communist.

If it's just because reddit took away the app treats, that's kind of a sad reason to use an explicitly anti-corporate software, but I'm sure there's a chunk of ppl on lemmy don't think much past that.

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[–] bloodfart@lemmy.ml 13 points 6 months ago

Yes.

Just go ask the 196 mods.

[–] blakeus12@hexbear.net 13 points 6 months ago
[–] shreddingitlater@hexbear.net 13 points 6 months ago
[–] Mr_Fish@lemmy.world 13 points 6 months ago (3 children)

No

To clear definitions, at least for me"tankies" are a subset of communists, who praises/defends the actions of all/most communist states far more than similar actions from capitalist states. The difference between communists and tankies is a bias in favor of communist states when looking at things like human rights violations. Very few people will self identify as a tankie, since it's hard to see your own bias.

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