this post was submitted on 24 Nov 2023
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Doomerism (lemmy.world)
submitted 11 months ago by neanderthal@lemmy.world to c/climate@slrpnk.net
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I would like to address the doomers.

Just stop. All you are accomplished is dissuading people from trying. Even if we fail, some of us would rather go out feeling good about ourselves knowing that we actually tried. If we succeed, I want to be on the right side of history. If you want to drive a canyonero through a drive through to buy a double cheeseburger on your way to the airport to fly somewhere for a shopping trip: please keep it to yourself.

  • There is still hope
  • Most people want action. I can cite more than one source.
  • Things are starting to turn around. Not as fast as we need to, but we are seeing change
  • Some of us are parents and have a reason to fight with all we have
  • If things get bad, our kids will actually want to have a relationship with us if we cared enough to try
  • Many things that help are economically better on the micro and macro scales

Doomers are the fossil fuel industry's best friend-- even more than the deniers are. If enough people succumb to it, they don't even have to pay lip service to the problem. Doomerism means you can continue to pollute and not even try.

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[–] Fecundpossum@lemmy.world 19 points 11 months ago (2 children)

As a doomer, I make it a point to not bother the hopeful with my doom. Why argue? Why bring people down. Yeah, okay, I see something that they don’t, but forcibly informing them of it doesn’t do jack shit for them or me.

I still try to recycle and live fairly low impact. My greatest achievement on that end is not reproducing. We can fully believe mankind is completely and utterly fucked and still choose to be decent human beings.

So, OP, I’m sorry about the ones that see it necessary to run their mouths. It would be better if we kept our doom to ourselves.

[–] MachineFab812@discuss.tchncs.de 12 points 11 months ago

"It would be better if some of the more vocal among us kept their doom to themselves"

There, I fixed it for you. You? We need more like you speaking up. Self-awareness and nuance is both more convincing, or at least more sincere and relatable than so much that's out in the wild.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Nah.

Pretending things aren't completely fucked hasn't worked for the last 50 years, it's not going to start now.

Besides, I don't think there's ever been a case where someone starts a slap fight online, than makes a new post talking about how dumb an opinion is when the other person gives up explaining.

People that do that shit aren't usually the ones to be listening to about anything.

If someone says the climate is fucked and there's zero signs the people in power will do anything, they're not a "doomer" they're accepting reality. And it doesn't mean they've given up either. Just that they're not blind and mindless

[–] Telorand@reddthat.com 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

If someone says the climate is fucked and there's zero signs the people in power will do anything, they're not a "doomer" they're accepting reality.

This is the problem, though. This is hyperbole. "Zero signs?" Citation needed. It is not self-evident, and using your experiences as evidence is just confirmation bias.

And that was OP's point. You might see it as a forgone conclusion, but that's not necessarily objective reality.

[–] qdJzXuisAndVQb2@lemm.ee 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Not zero,but so far below what is neededthat 'doomer' is a ridiculous characterisation of 'realist'. Anyone who thinks we're dealing with the problem is delusional.

[–] Telorand@reddthat.com 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

You're confusing cynic with realist. The realists are the climate scientists, who have yet to say humanity is doomed.

[–] qdJzXuisAndVQb2@lemm.ee 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Oh hanity will live on. We're a pretty adaptable species, but not as numerous or as comfortable.

[–] Telorand@reddthat.com 3 points 11 months ago

Or, we could try our best to prevent it on the chance that billions of people don't have to die.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world -4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

This is the problem, though. This is hyperbole. “Zero signs?” Citation needed

That's not how logic works...

I can say there's zero signs God exist, and a religious person will demand proof and start doing victory laps.

I can't prove that there's nothing they're doing, just like I can't prove Bigfoot isn't alive somewhere.

However, if you knew where bigfoot was, you could prove it.

So, if you think the people running governments are actually doing enough to stop the centuries long destruction of our environment, you could do that. But it's not happening, so it's not. At best you could point to future plans and claim that will be enough. But people have been doing that for decades and haven't been right once.

I mean, how would I even provide what you're asking for? It can't be as easy as pointing to all the records that show it hasn't started getting better yet...

[–] neanderthal@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Except there is evidence sort the chart by percentage.

In the US, we passed the IRA.

EV and e bikes are making rapid gains regarding phasing out ICE vehicles.

Go to the lawnmower (I know, lawns suck) section of a big box hardware store and notice the large selection of electric mowers and trimmers.

Rooftop solar has exploded in my neighborhood.

Content about car dependent design sucking has grown drastically in popularity the past few years.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world -1 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I don't know what you think that chart proves, but it's not that climate change is slowing...

And you're completely ignoring all the pollution and fossil fuels that go into mining, refining, and transporting the rare earth minerals needed for batteries...

Like, you literally did the only thing I could be done, after I explained how that wouldn't be proof:

At best you could point to future plans and claim that will be enough. But people have been doing that for decades and haven’t been right once.

You don't know what you're talking about, but you're optimistic, I'll give you that.

Won't do you any good. But feel free to ignore reality while you sit back and claim everything is fine.

[–] neanderthal@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It proves that work is being done by showing how many places have transitioned almost entirely to renewables for power generation. You said show evidence that governments are doing something, I provided.

Things aren't fine, but succumbing to doomerism guarantees the worst case outcome. The more people continue to try, the less bad things get.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world -2 points 11 months ago

Welp, I tried...

Luckily there's one more strategy I know will work

[–] Telorand@reddthat.com 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

And you're completely ignoring all the pollution and fossil fuels that go into mining, refining, and transporting the rare earth minerals needed for batteries...

https://theconversation.com/how-sodium-ion-batteries-could-make-electric-cars-cheaper-207342

It's a good thing the people trying to remove the problematic components from things like EVs don't listen to doomers like you.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

This probably going to bring back bad memories from yesterday for you, but I'm sure I'm not the only person taking this option to avoid talking to you

[–] Telorand@reddthat.com 1 points 11 months ago

Good. Keep your doomerism to yourself.

[–] Mojojojo1993@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

No. We need doom. It enacts change.

[–] neanderthal@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Doomerism = giving up

[–] Mojojojo1993@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago

Fair enough. I think doom as in. End of times. Time fo nut up or shit up. When you are backed up against the wall you need to fight. Not give up.

But perspective and all that

[–] OurTragicUniverse@kbin.social 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Spreading awareness of how fucked everything is, is not giving up.

People need to know that the world is fucking ending so that they stop having kids and buying cars and doing stupid shit. People should be enjoying the last of the abundance and lowering their expectations about the future.

[–] Mojojojo1993@lemmy.world -1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

People need to be told and forced. Humans are greedy selfish pieces of shit

[–] OurTragicUniverse@kbin.social 0 points 11 months ago

Nah i draw the line at forced.

Humans suck tho, you're right about that.

Octavia Bulter wrote in I think it was Lillith's Brood, that (I'm paraphrasing) 'humans are greedy, easily corruptable and prone to violent authoritarianism- and always have been' and it's stuck with me for years now.

[–] LemmyIsFantastic@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Meh I just hate you folks and associate whatever I hear with bullshit doomerism rather than wanting to listen. I don't think you are as helpful as you think.

[–] Mojojojo1993@lemmy.world -3 points 11 months ago

Kool. Hate you too. Get rekt playa

Don't really care. Be all dead soon enough. Then doesn't matter. Doesn't matter now either. Your opinion is nothing same as mine

Woop Woop

[–] Dogyote@slrpnk.net 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Here here. I'm not a doomer and frankly can't stand that mindset. As far as we're concerned there will always be people on this planet and we should do whatever we can to give them an existence that allows for more than just survival. I have some hot takes on doomers:

  1. Being a doomer is a very privileged position to have. A doomer appears to absolve themself of having a stake in the future, and therefore they don't really need to take action. If they did, their actions would only serve to discomfort them today and wouldn't have an impact on those living in the future, so why should they bother? They usually hide this position behind "I'm just being realistic" or "I'm just working with the data I have." Frankly they're the worst, as they'll argue with people to justify their shitty attitude and pull people down in the process.

  2. being a doomer is some sort of type-A or perfectionist personality issue. Since the future won't be perfect, they can't participate in mitigation since things won't turn out "perfect".

  3. being a doomer is related to an anxiety problem. When I'm anxious about something, I can't see past the theoretical event I'm anxious about. Therefore I can't think about possible outcomes or solutions and can only fixate on the terrible event.

  4. They're just young and haven't seriously invested in the future yet. However they don't see why they should when there's a bunch of doomers saying the end is certain.

  5. They're old and regret the life they lived and choices they've made, thus they take comfort in the idea that there won't be a worthwhile future. Therefore their regretful decisions were in fact the best decisions they could have made. Imagine how comforting a future societal collapse would be to a boomer who regrets not having a family. They'd probably be relieved.

Again, these are hot takes from some person on the internet. However if one hits a nerve you may want to exercise some introspection and maybe try helping out instead of discouraging people from trying.

[–] neanderthal@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago

I agree 100 percent.

Again, these are hot takes from some person on the internet.

  1. Being a doomer is a very privileged position to have. A doomer appears to absolve themself of having a stake in the future, and therefore they don't really need to take action. If they did, their actions would only serve to discomfort them today and wouldn't have an impact on those living in the future, so why should they bother?

Posting on social media has consequences. It does influence people. Case in point, the George Floyd death and aftermath. Another case: COVID misinformation getting people killed.

The last thing we need is people spreading permission to give up and do nothing (not even vote) or take the misanthropic route and try to make it as bad as possible.

[–] poVoq@slrpnk.net 0 points 11 months ago

Closing this because this is going nowhere. Also please see our CoC that has a section on this topic: https://wiki.f-hub.org/books/slrpnknet/page/code-of-conduct

[–] the_q@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The onus isn't on us. Feeling good about yourself while the ship sinks is the dumbest thing I've come across in a while.

[–] Telorand@reddthat.com 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Who said you have to feel good about yourself? The point is that giving up will definitely doom us. Doing nothing isn't even an attempt at a solution.

Some of us aren't willing to give up, some people aren't sure either way, and saying, "It's pointless. Just accept your fate," doesn't help anyone. If you want to give up, that's 100% on you. If we are definitely doomed and don't know it (and the expert consensus doesn't share that opinion), I plan to go down swinging.

[–] neanderthal@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

We have the numbers, there are plenty of talented and skilled people on them right side of things, we just need to find the will to do it.

Action follows belief. If you believe you can take that growling gerrman shepherd, you might just punch it in the teeth when it lunges and then put in a headlock and choke it out. If you don't believe, you're dog food. Enjoy a definite painful death of being eaten by a dog.

[–] qdJzXuisAndVQb2@lemm.ee 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Cool macho fantasy bro. The dog won't kill me directly, but it for sure will fuck loads of others. It is inevitable.

[–] Telorand@reddthat.com -2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It is inevitable.

Prove it.

[–] qdJzXuisAndVQb2@lemm.ee 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Neither you or I can 'prove' either opinion in any meaningful way.

[–] Telorand@reddthat.com 1 points 11 months ago

But I can prove that giving up will produce an almost certain negative outcome. If we can't prove what will happen through trying, then it is at least worth the attempt to try.

[–] Dogyote@slrpnk.net -2 points 11 months ago

Today's doomers are going to look pretty stupid in 40 years once it's clear the ship is turning in the right direction. I wonder how bitter they'll be.