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Mandatory jail term for Nazi salute under new hate crime rules in Australia
(www.independent.co.uk)
this post was submitted on 06 Feb 2025
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One year's mandatory jail term for any "hate-related offenses" seems a bit far imo. Should be just a fine at least for first offense *on the lightest end, unless it's some physical attack and stuff like that.
That's basically a tax on not being rich enough to be a nazi, which... well.
Do you think the same about any traffic violation or all fines in general? We should throw people in the jail for a year, mnimum, because otherwise it's just a tax on not being rich enough for the crime?
Come on now. I'm all for having tougher sentences on the high end for hate related offenses, but a mandatory minimum being year in jail for any such offense, even some dipshit doing a Nazi salute and nothing is else, is just too much. It's like said, dipshit behaviour but hardly worth a year in jail. And it probably won't solve the issue anyway. Just putting people in jail seldom does imo. Yanks have already tried that.
Not all "legal offenses" are crimes. Legal systems have categories for a reason. Got caught loitering in the act? That can quite simply be solved by just have you go back to pick up your trash. Some things should not be punishable with jail, some others should, nazism clearly belongs in the later category.
Lemme let you in on a secret:
Yanks don't send people to jail to "solve crime". They don't want to "solve crime". They fill jails to have a cheap abusable workforce. They've even come out saying it openly out loud. Why do you think it's black people or homeless people 90% of the time?
If that's what you feel makes a difference for my argument, let me ask:
"Do you think the same about any crime in general? We should throw people in the jail for a year, mnimum, because otherwise it’s just a tax on not being rich enough for the crime?"
Do you think people behind this think this will solve hate? I just don't think this sort of mandatory jail sentences will do any good. To me it makes a lot more sense to have a wider scale in punishments. This just feels like it's reacting a bit panicky into what's happening in the world with more to soothe people's minds than to actually do something meaningful to change things.
Are you equating doing a Nazi salute to parking in front of a fire hydrant?
They were saying that fines are just a barrier for the poor, so I was asking if that holds true for all fines. That was the actual point you missed.
But sure, in the sense that neither should carry a mandatory jail sentence for a year, they're the same.
I would love to hear your suggestions for stopping people from being openly Nazis because nothing else seems to have worked so far.
Will you get rid of them entirely? No. Can you force them to shut the fuck up with their hateful Nazi sit if they want to be a part of society? I think this will sure help.
But my family tree's lack of forks does give me a bit of an unfair anti-Nazi bias, I admit.
This isn't about people being just openly Nazi but for any "hate-related offense". If you want to tackle any such thing you might need to look into the root causes of the issues and try to fix those, including tackling concerns from the people who become hateful, such as living conditions, education, that sort of stuff. So much like with criminality. That's a lot more work than just the "tough on crime" approach of throwing everyone into jail for a year, minimum, and hoping that will work (or rather trying to show to your voters that you're doing something).
It will be the same as anywhere that already has this sort of laws, people will be less obvious about it while the same hate and message is out there. I don't think this will affect anything that giving tougher fines wouldn't and it would cause more negatives than that does. You could even have stricter punishments for repeat offenders and do fines as day fines. But prison for a year for any such offense? The scale seems off, especially when you consider that the maximum for terrorism related stuff is six years.
"Less obvious" means fewer recruits. I'm not sure why you think being less obvious is just as effective as being overt.
"Recruits"? The concern isn't people joining something, it's them agreeing with the message. Less obvious approach already works just fine (probably even better than direct approach) all over the world in selling the message and the hate, so if you think this mandatory year of jail will have much of an effect on that, I have a few other "tough on crime" approaches to sell to you. Might even declare War on Hate in style of War on Drugs.
As usual, people want tough and immediate measures, forgetting about a longer term approach and working to tackle the causes of why this messaging sells so well.
Oh I don't think it's just as effective. It's not as effective, it's even more so since it's easier to get people to agree if you start small and then drop hints slowly. Obvious approach will just drive people away. You don't start with "sieg heil kill all the untermensch ", you start with something small, saying how foreigners are stealing your jobs or making the housing market suck. Then you can guide them in the direction you want without ever saying it. And shit like that is almost impossible to go after in any sensible way, without a risk of punishing people on very questionable grounds.
Sorry... you think that averting people from joining Nazi groups is unimportant? You think they're more dangerous as individuals?
I'm sorry but where in my reply did you get those ideas?
The concern is literally them joining something. One bigot alone has very little power.
You’re playing into the paradox of tolerance. Don’t do that.
It's nothing to do with paradox of tolerance to think a year's mandatory jail time for a year is pretty ridiculous for any "hate-related offenses".
I'm against in general of just throwing people into the slammer and hoping that fixes the issues. Punishment should fit the crime and some dipshit doing some Nazi salute isn't worth a year in goddamn prison. Give them a hefty fine for first time, sure, but a mandatory sentence of a year for any such offense, just seems too far.
Why stop at jail time? Why not execute them?
Edit: the point is to consider what level of punishment is appropriate, not to actually execute anyone.
Pragmatic constraints.
What level of punishment is appropriate?
Sure! What's worthy of more punishment, stealing packages from your neighbors doorstep or doing a Nazi salute? How about assaulting someone and mugging them? I think those are both worse than a nazi salute and deserving of more punishment. A Nazi salute wouldn't affect me at all except to be annoyed at their idiocy. Beating me up or stealing my stuff definitely impacts me. I don't have a clear idea of how much punishment is reasonable, but probably something less than the punishment for petty theft. That's my two cents.
I asked you what level of punishment is appropriate. You did not answer.
And it's nice of you to have the privilege to not be affected by a Nazi salute. Jews like me don't have that luxury, because many of us have personally experienced what comes next. And I don't mean during WWII.
I didn't really answer because I'm not quite sure. I suppose i have a hard time imagining what category of actions or words should be punishable with jail time. Maybe hate speech? But then how do you define hate speech? And how do you limit the growing list of things defined as hate speech? Seems too easily politicized, like they could be repurposed as blasphemy laws or something. I guess i tend toward those not being punishable offenses because of their subjective nature. A nazi salute might cause me to roll my eyes, but cause you a ton of distress, regardless of the actual intent of the person doing it. Maybe they did it without knowing what it meant to you, or maybe they thought it was funny, or maybe they were trying to normalize and legitimize hatred of Jews. It could be any of those or something altogether different. There is far too much subjectivity or room for error.
The world may never know.
Also, this:
None of those things make a Nazi salute acceptable. Literally nothing makes it acceptable. You're now on the level of people who have been defending Elon Musk for it, I hope you realize that.
Dude, if a 15 year old kid is messing around with his buddies and throws up a salute, it should not be punishable. If a 30 year old autistic guy throws up a salute because he never understood the context or meaning behind it, he shouldn't be punished. I can theorize a hundred examples that wouldn't be deserving of punishment, but are actually simple misunderstanding or ignorance. And that's the problem. I don't think it's acceptable, but I also don't think it's punishable through government actions. Social pressure should be sufficient to correct ignorant behavior in cases like this. Do you think it's more just to punish an innocent man wrongly, or to let a guilty person go free? Do you feel confident in the justice system ability to determine guilt accurately?
You're now using the exact excuse people made for Elon Musk.
Can you tell me about all these autistic people who go around giving Nazi salutes inadvertently? Because there are a lot of autistic people in my family and that doesn't seem to be amongst their symptoms.
Elon is mature enough and to know better and I'm not defending him. But my argument is not that they would do it inadvertently, but that they would do it without understanding the significance. I feel like you keep trying to bully me into a position I don't hold...
It is impossible for me to bully you over Lemmy. It is possible to say offensive things about autistic people, though. Maybe you shouldn't. Unless you have an actual example of this happening.
You are intentionally mischaracterizing my stance and then being preachy and condescending about it. It's pretty annoying so I'm going to move on.
I am not mischaracterizing anything. I am asking you to give an example of what you're talking about.
Clearly you can't. You apparently don't understand what autism is.
a paywall for a moral breach sounds like a horrendous idea
If you consider a fine just a paywall then do you feel like there should be jail sentence for all traffic violations too, for example? A bit ridiculous, imo.
A fine works if it's a significant amount of the finee's net worth, but because fines are not scaled proportionally to finee's net worth (or even scaled at all) it's my opinion that these things just work as a paywall, including things like traffic violations.
You definitely can scale fines for income. We have that in Finland for more serious traffic violations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine
I just don't believe the severity of the crime here at the lowest end calls for a year in jail. A fine, a hefty one, would serve the purpose better.
interesting, that kind of fine would be nice for us to have in Australia. i agree with you honestly, a fine for something like this would be good as long as it's hefty and proportional to income
Yes I'm suggesting on being more lenient than a mandatory jail sentence of a full year for any hate-related crimes. Some are serious enough to warrant it but mandatory sentence of a year for any is pretty damn far.