this post was submitted on 23 Dec 2024
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Summary

France’s Flamanville 3 nuclear reactor, its most powerful at 1,600 MW, was connected to the grid on December 21 after 17 years of construction plagued by delays and budget overruns.

The European Pressurized Reactor (EPR), designed to boost nuclear energy post-Chernobyl, is 12 years behind schedule and cost €13.2 billion, quadruple initial estimates.

President Macron hailed the launch as a key step for low-carbon energy and energy security.

Nuclear power, which supplies 60% of France’s electricity, is central to Macron’s plan for a “nuclear renaissance.”

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[–] ryedaft@sh.itjust.works 102 points 2 days ago (9 children)

At least this one is on the coast so it can still run when the rivers dry up.

But holy shitsnacks 3½ times slower than planned and 4 times more expensive. No wonder no new nuclear power plants have been built in a generation when the ones coming online now were all delayed by a generation.

[–] olafurp@lemmy.world 31 points 2 days ago (3 children)

4 times budget sounds more than it is. You have to underbid to actually get contracts for construction and then it also depends on what was actually missing in the specification.

Big projects are never on budget because the budget is just an arbitrary number of lowballing the best case estimate

[–] kerrigan778@lemmy.world 20 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Also any project that takes longer than the initial estimate will be overbudget, not only because you are paying local workers for longer (fairly good for the economy) but simply because inflation has happened more since the project started.

[–] olafurp@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

Yeah, also financing cost for equipment and material sitting around which usually comes as a cost to the contractor.

[–] zqps@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 day ago

... but we make decisions about economic viability on that basis??

[–] NauticalNoodle@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

My state has been building a new interstate highway in segments for the last 1.5 decades and for the segment nearest me the main construction contract was awarded to a major french company. The french company thought the project was an upfront full payout, but the state had it set up as a piecemeal payment system based on hitting specific objectives. Upon finding this out the company halted all work and abandoned the job until the state took over the project 18 months later.

This reminds me of that.

The french company thought the project was an upfront full payout, but the state had it set up as a piecemeal payment system based on hitting specific objectives.

I pretty much just don't believe you.

"How & when will we get paid" is a core component of tenders even for contracts worth a few thousand dollars. I'm incredulous that a contract worth many millions could be awarded without anyone realising that payments were provided in stages.

What you're describing sounds much more like a disagreement over a variation. Whatever aspect of the project was going to cost more than anticipated so the contract needs to be varied. Service acquirer refuses to vary, contractor refuses to absorb the cost.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 30 points 2 days ago (25 children)

As others have mentioned, it isn't for a practical reason. Nuclear is not that difficult to build. Look at China. Certain groups (funded by dirty energy companies) have pushed an idea that nuclear isn't safe and had more and more bureaucracy and regulations pushed onto it. Sure, some is needed, as it's also needed for other sources. Nuclear has been strategically handicapped though because they know it'd destroy their business if it's able to compete on a level playing field.

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 23 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The most unimaginably, but historically stupid thing was "green" activists protesting against nuclear power and for coal and gas.

And yes, nuclear power is very efficient. What makes it most efficient is the ability to very quickly regulate output, the improved logistics, and smaller reliance on beheading, culture-erasing, genocidal, revisionist savages getting everywhere.

[–] olafurp@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Turning a reactor on and off is not as easy. They're designed as baseload power that is meant to run continuously. SMR are the ones that are quick and responsive but those are always a couple of years away.

[–] AnyOldName3@lemmy.world 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The ones in service right now are mostly/all designed that way, but that's a design decision rather than an inherent limitation. They cost basically the same to run whether they're at maximum output or minimum, so they're most cost-effective as base load and if you need responsive output, you can probably build something else for less money. If you ignore that and build one anyway, you only need fast motors on the control rods and the output can be changed as quickly as throttling gas turbines, but there's no need for that if you know you're just building for base load.

[–] A1kmm@lemmy.amxl.com 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

changed as quickly as throttling gas turbines

Nuclear power plants aim to finely balance the reaction between delayed criticality - a very slow exponential increase in the level of radioactivity, and marginal sub-criticality - i.e. a very slow exponential decrease in the level of radioactivity.

To get faster exponential growth in power output than delayed criticality is physically possible - past delayed criticality is prompt criticality. However, fast exponential growth of radioactive output on time scales so short that machines cannot react is not something you ever want to happen in a civilian nuclear application; only nuclear weapons deliberately go into the prompt critical region, and an explicit aim of nuclear power plant design is to ensure the reaction never goes into the prompt critical region.

This means that slow exponential changes is the best the technology can do (and why plants need active cooling for a period of time even when shutting down - see Fukushima when their reactors were automatically shutting down due to the detection of an earthquake, but their cooling power infrastructure got flooded while they were decreasing their output).

I think the most promising future development will be more renewable capacity coupled with better long-distance transmission and batteries (ideally sodium when the tech is ready).

[–] AnyOldName3@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

You're not throttling between 0% output and 100% output, as that takes weeks or months, and instead throttling within a limited range at the upper end of the output power. Because a nuclear reactor puts out so much power compared to a combined cycle gas turbine, going down to 80% power has a comparable impact to totally shutting down a gas turbine. It doesn't need to be instant to be used for dynamic load - throttling a gas turbine isn't as it takes time for the heat exchanger to warm up or cool down after increasing or decreasing the fuel flow, and time for the first turbine to speed up or slow down after the flow of the Brayton-cycle coolant changes, and then more time for the second heat exchanger to heat up/cool down and more time for the Rankin-cycle turbine to speed up or slow down as the flow of steam changes, and only then is the new desired output power achieved.

Wikipedia puts the average emission time for delayed neutrons at fifteen seconds, which while ludicrously slow compared to a bomb, is really fast compared to the day-night cycle that represents most dynamic load variance in a country with plenty of renewables or heavy industry that doesn't operate at night time, so there's plenty of time for the power output to respond as long as you're restricting the range that it's operating in.

[–] dragonfucker@lemmy.nz 18 points 2 days ago

That said, now that solar and wind are cheaper, conservative politicians are finally pushing for nuclear, because 17 more years of building at 4 times the budget means more fossil fuels in the meantime compared with spending those government funds on solar and wind.

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[–] DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone 36 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Some anti nuclear groups do everything they can to slow down nuclear builds, putting as many road blocks in the way as possible. Then when it's slow they say: see, building nuclear plants is slow!

[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 12 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Did the anti nuclear people inflate the cost fourfold, too?

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 18 points 2 days ago (7 children)

Yes, impeding something is ultimately an increase in cost. That's how it works.

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[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 8 points 2 days ago

Politics are part of the system though. But if strategic supply of oil, gas, coal from undemocratic regimes was simply off the table, constitutionally forbidden and all that, I think nuclear energy would suddenly become more competitive. Because the financing of such groups would suffer.

[–] john89@lemmy.ca 23 points 2 days ago

No wonder no new nuclear power plants have been built in a generation when the ones coming online now were all delayed by a generation.

I encourage you to take a look at any infrastructure project.

Going over budget and past deadlines is normal.

[–] fibojoly@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 day ago

In my mother's hometown, they finally decided which architect would redesign the townhall after it's roof burnt down. Five years ago. And this is a rich town. France is fucking useless at getting shit done fast. It's depressing really. This plant finally getting built is a fucking miracle!

[–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 16 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

The hope of these new small modular reactors is they can cut the time down.

Less land, mass manufactured in a factory and shipped to location.

That should help with estimated costs being closer to real costs.

Even if they're still expensive, being able to better plan and predict things is huge.

[–] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Except that's all been tried and promised before. The concept of SMRs is nothing new. It's been tried again and again, every few years since the 1970s. It's never panned out, and the promised savings from mass production of small reactors never materializes.

[–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

It might have been promised for awhile, but we're finally at the point of certain plans getting government approvals. It takes time. We might start seeing some finally start to get built in the 2030's

Edit: This ones says 2029 operational, but see, it wasn't even certified until 2023, and this is the first SMR certified in the USA. Its taken forever to get SMRs certified.

https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/nrc-certifies-first-us-small-modular-reactor-design

[–] AnyOldName3@lemmy.world 13 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It doesn't help when all the senior employees from last time you built a reactor have retired and anyone who hasn't retired was pretty junior the last time around. For projects where you have to get everything right the first time, so can't just try things to see what works, it's devastating to stop doing them if you ever might need to start again.

[–] ryedaft@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 days ago

Yeah, that's the whole joke.

[–] olympicyes@lemmy.world 7 points 2 days ago

The full price is still less than 1/4 of Doge Coin’s market cap.

[–] vin@lemmynsfw.com 7 points 2 days ago

4 times for expensive is not too bad, big projects usually overrun. It's even God considering the time overrun, which is shocking.