this post was submitted on 22 Jun 2024

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167

Hundreds died during this year's Hajj pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia amid intense heat, officials say (apnews.com)

submitted 6 months ago by alphacyberranger@sh.itjust.works to c/world@lemmy.world

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[–] boatsnhos931@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Y didn't god save them

[–] Eyck_of_denesle@lemmy.zip 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

How do you know god didn't save them?

[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Because it isn't real. Unlike the very real humans who died doing this and the very real humans running Saudia Arabia who allowed this to happen.

[–] Blizzard@lemmy.zip -1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

humans running Saudia Arabia who allowed this to happen.

Grown up humans are allowed to make their own decisions.

[–] GiveMemes@jlai.lu 7 points 6 months ago

Not in that country they ain't. At least not about most things.

[–] boatsnhos931@lemmy.world -1 points 6 months ago

Just gotta give all the glory to God. Just out there getting r done one idiot at a time .

[–] dept@lemmy.sdf.org 14 points 6 months ago (2 children)

This is mostly because people are dumbasses.

People who went the official route, getting a permit and going through a company were ok as they stayed in air conditioned places most the time. These people spend upwards of $5k and much more.

People who couldn't afford it went through unofficial routes and were forced to sleep outside and had to walk everywhere and even some had to sneak into makkah through the fucking desert.

Islam doesn't force people to go through pilgrimage unless they can do it both physically and monetarily. Also even of the ones that went through the official route MANY of them are super old with medical conditions and shouldn't have even boarded the plane.

[–] Blizzard@lemmy.zip 4 points 6 months ago

This is mostly because people are dumbasses

Yes, they went on life-threatening journey because "god".

[–] paris@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 6 months ago

“Regrettably, the number of mortalities reached 1,301, with 83% being unauthorised to perform hajj and having walked long distances under direct sunlight, without adequate shelter or comfort,” the official Saudi Press Agency (SPA) reported.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/23/hajj-pilgrimage-death-toll-extreme-heat-mecca-saudi-arabia

That's still 200+ deaths who were registered. And my understanding of Saudia Arabia in this context is that they don't always permit Muslims from certain countries, so they have no choice if they want to make their pilgrimage. This is a once in a lifetime event that some people may plan out years in advance. I don't think it's fair to blame them for not registering, especially when in some cases they can't.

[+] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world -6 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (5 children)

Allah: "As faithful Muslims, I command you to make a pilgrimage to the desert in the middle of June."

Muslims: "Yes, O Lord!" [Proceed to die of heat exhaustion.]

Allah: "Ha ha! Fuck you!" [Goes off to hang out with the virgins those guys didn't get for not dying as martyrs.]

Sorry... just trying to imagine how many people of any deistic faith wouldn't have unnecessarily killed themselves over the centuries if they just accepted their god didn't exist.

[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 15 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I think it's silly too, but isn't this a bit insensitive? People died. It is their own fault for making bad decisions in this situation, but they still died.

It's also a lot easier to choose not to be Muslim when your entire family and maybe your entire support group isn't Muslim. Hell, how many of those people who died came from countries where it's basically required by law to be Muslim?

[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 6 points 6 months ago (2 children)

It is indeed. But atheists have a tendency to think it's fine for them to be hateful towards religious people because "they hate all religion". Logically hating more people makes someone even worse, but there's not all that much logic going on in the minds of some atheists. For some people, Atheism is just a cover for being hateful, in exactly the same way some people use Christianity (or any other religion) to provide cover for their hatred.

If the guy didn't say something about "deists," the comment would be identical to something an Islamophobic Christian might say. Religious bigotry from atheists is identical to bigotry coming from religious people.

[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 4 points 6 months ago

ftr; also atheist, but decided not to be insensitive today, lol

[–] GiveMemes@jlai.lu -1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

I can prove objectively that religion is bad for humanity. Can you do the same about atheism? There's a huge difference between the two. We respect people, not their beliefs. If someone's a racist, that's a belief with just as much evidence (aka none/blind faith) as a religion. Do I have to respect their religions? I do think it's really sad that these people died, though I view it as an easily preventable occurrence, and mostly the fault of those that partook. (The same way that I viewed the submarine)

[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 3 points 6 months ago

I can prove objectively that religion is bad for humanity. Can you do the same about atheism?

Sure... there's a very large number of people that were killed by atheists like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. There's a large enough sample size to objectively prove that when atheists are in power they are as bad (if not worse) than religious people in power.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world -3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I doubt it's required by state law for them to go to Mecca on pilgrimage in any Muslim country. How could they even prove you really did it? At most they could inspect your passport to see if you went to Saudi Arabia.

[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

What I said was "basically required by law to be Muslim", not required by state law to do the Hajj

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

Okay, but this is about going on the Hajj and their nation's laws cant require them to do that.

[–] mightyfoolish@lemmy.world 8 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Allah: “As faithful Muslims, I command you to make a pilgrimage to the desert in the middle of June.”

Muslims: “Yes, O Lord!” [Proceed to die of heat exhaustion.]

Allah: “Ha ha! Fuck you!” [Goes off to hang out with the virgins those guys didn’t get for not dying as martyrs.]

Why aren't they martyrs? They literally died for their religious belief.

noun One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles. - The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

[–] ikidd@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I think dying during pilgrimage is supposed to confer similar benefits to martyrdom.

[–] GiveMemes@jlai.lu -1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

That's not what the term martyr means when we're referring to Islam tho. They're usually referring to Jihad which is much more specific. (And problematic)

Also, imagine thinking an American dictionary and en English word mean anything when the only 'true' reading of this religion is Arabic

[–] mightyfoolish@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It just feels off to me that only war could bring someone to martyrdom. There's no way a religion wouldn't honor those who died putting in effort. I would argue that the idea runs contradictory to pretty much any religion with a central Deity. People wouldn't put in the effort otherwise.

According to Wikipedia (not definitive but at least this source is universal) the first martyr was a woman who did not die in a war. She was murdered for converting. This page also lists sources for ways to be martyred in nonmilitary efforts.

Here is a thread I found on reddit called Explain To Me Martyrdom that also states not all martyrs die in war.

[–] GiveMemes@jlai.lu 2 points 6 months ago

Those are the hadiths which is kinda like a state law vs a national law where the national law overpowers the state law (except in specific circumstances) or how the us constitution overrides national law. The quran is the only book that's the word of God, and if you take all the hadiths as truth you open Islam up to all kinds of other critiques. Besides that, the shia/sunni split has a ton of hadith issues where they only treat some as truth and not others. For the record it's not just Muslims or something. All of the Abrahamic religions are immensely fucked and I'm pretty sure I could make a similar case for most others. Even fucking Buddhism is being used to justify an ethnic cleansing rn.

You have definitely made me reflect on what I said and I shouldn't have made such a claim when I don't really know what I'm talking about entirely.

[–] pyre@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

dude you clearly don't know anything about Islam. it neither restricts martyrdom nor the concept of jihad to war.

[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml -2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Jew constantly whining about people being uninformed about antisemitism spreads blatantly uninformed Islamophobia

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

"Jew" can refer a person's religion, but can also be an ethnicity. "Islam" is a religion and not an ethnicity. I couldn't give less of a shit if you make fun of the Jewish religion. Do it all you like. It's a moronic religion.

So the religion of Islam? Yeah, I'll mock it. Arab culture? Nigerian culture? Malaysian culture? No. I won't mock that.

You don't choose your ethnicity. You choose your religion.

[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Jew is not an ethnicity. The "Jew as a race" was invented by the Nazis. https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/are-jews-a-race/

When your knowledge of Islam is 2002 Fox News it would be a great idea to not type comments on the internet. Or at least get slightly informed beforehand because everything you are saying is comically stupid and actually incredibly racist.

Only able bodied people are commanded to make the Pilgrimage once in their lifetime. Nobody is commanded to die for it. Most of the deaths are unregistered people that did not pass a health check.

But this new mythical Atheist belief that God will let nobody that's on God's path die is incredibly weird.

When you read almost any religion you will find even the prophets, the people selected by God, had many hardships and many people died in battles and even of sicknesses. God did not give them an autowin and invincibility by being on his side. Would make for incredibly boring stories too.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Why do you think you get to define who I am?

Also, good luck convincing people that the atheist Larry David is not a Jew.

[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml -2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I hate to break it to you but this definition of Jew it's just a racist way to describe Eastern Europeans. Your ancestors were likely Ashkenazi Jews. Polish or Ukrainian or Romanian or Russian etc. Ashkenazim would be a way to describe yourself. Not "Jewish", as you say you are not a Jew.

This is akin to conflating Muslims with Arabs. Very easy and convenient for people that don't know better. Used to be true most of the time, but factually not correct. Many TV shows and Muslims self-described all Arabs as Muslims. In the 90's and 2000's nobody cared about using the correct naming for things and racist misnomers were fine. Larry David used to play religiously Jewish characters all the time he didn't mind the trope.

But most people now understand these are not the same and 2000's entertainment was not an accurate representation of reality. Just a racist one.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Again, good luck convincing people that Larry David, an atheist, is not a Jew.

Also, telling people they do not have the right of self-identity would be against our civility rules for me just as much as it would be for a trans person, so I would suggest this road would be a bad one for you to go down.