this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2023
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cross-posted from: https://literature.cafe/post/641633

I was never extremely active on Mastodon until recently but I followed it's development relatively closely from its infancy. And I will say that it's really strange to watch lemmy face nearly identical issues that Mastodon did when it was in a similar development stages. (Though, some of the drama thus far have been essentially a speedrun of what mastodon went thru over a gradual amount of time.)

The fediverse as a whole is essentially a return to the Internets roots, and with that comes new problems that OG internet communities did not have to grapple with due to the changes the internet has faced in the past few years alone. When building communities, most large internet communities have been largely corporate since the rapid centralization of the internet of the mid 2000s. There is truly no blueprint for this, and the volunteers that are making these communities from scratch are going to make mistakes (as we have already witnessed more than once, even this week alone.)

A large issue that has resulted from the corporate centralization of the internet that is really hard to break from is the expectation of an extremely smooth streamlined experience on emerging platforms like lemmy from new users. And you aren't going to get that in these early days. You just aren't. Things are going to be messy, we are just getting our feet on the ground. And this results in a lot of frustration and just generally a feeling of walking on thin ice with a user base that has been largely built initially from the exodus of an already established platform. To many regular lemmy users there's this expectation that tends to be "well, if other social media platforms can do it, why can't we?" and to admins and those building these communities it can be frustrating and feel like the users are being entitled to things that just aren't possible from volunteers at this time.

With recent drama and inter community issues, the honeymoon phase of this place is officially ending and how we move forward is entirely dependent on how we respond as a community as well as what people using this platform as a whole want from it. You get what you put in.

I don't say this to discount the drama that lemmy has faced these past few weeks but if you honestly think that this place has been toxic so far, the early days of Mastodon would have seemed like pure hell in comparison. Early Mastodon drama was like, doxxings, entire instance admins quite literally being chasing off their own sites over petty nonsense, things like that. It was bad. Really bad. And despite the existence of fedidrama, that stuff has stabilized. Why? Because the community stabilized and gradually formed their own cultures and the community volunteers building communities learned from their mistakes. People moved to smaller communities and stopped being hostile to decentralization. The necessity of defederation was embraced by most who began to understand its importance.

Some of the biggest issues lemmy has right now aren't easy to solve, but we have a blueprint to what solutions worked and what didn't from Mastodon. There's also the issue with lemmy having a generally different culture from Mastodon, and that's OK. We want our own community identity, not the same as Reddit or Mastodon or Twitter. In many ways that is already being built as well.

Right now, the biggest thing is just sticking with this place and persevering the growing pains. It is so easy to get burnt out, and the Mastodon instances that got too big for the admins to actually deal with are clear examples of that. I know it's easy to look at recent events and feel disappointment as well as feel that just generally the most toxic Redditors migrated over, but doing that is just giving up before we even began. If you used Mastodon in it's early days, it fucking sucked so bad. We have a leg up here that it's overall easier to navigate communities and discussions out of the box (and with the current development, it's only going to get better.)

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[–] Adderbox76@lemmy.ca 104 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Why uneasiness? This is federation working exactly how it's supposed to. People are free to spout whatever garbage they want, and no one else is obligated to listen to them if they don't want to.

No one is infringing on hexbears so-called "free speech". They're still free to shout into their megaphone. But the rest of us can close the damn door on them if we don't want to listen. That's quite literally the best of both worlds.

The only people that are "uneasy" are the people who think that "free speech" means being able to force people to have to listen to their bullshit. It's not. Never has been. Never will be.

I for one love how federation tends to sort itself out without stripping away anyone's right to free expression. Hexbear, or whatever instance happens to be controversial at the moment, can still say whatever they want. No one is shutting them down. No one is censoring them. No one is stepping on their rights. The rest of us just have the power to not have to listen to them. It's a great system working exactly as designed and it's absolutely how the future of social media has to be.

[–] sloppy_diffuser@sh.itjust.works 36 points 1 year ago

Aye, the right to free speech does not mean the right to an audience.

[–] gabe@literature.cafe 32 points 1 year ago

It’s also important to point out with the people sick of the constant talk of Reddit, that same issue was quite big in Mastodons early days as well especially during the first big migrations. People constantly talked about Twitter.

[–] Venicon@sopuli.xyz 29 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Don’t know if I’m out of the loop but what drama has there been recently?

[–] Eldritch@lemmy.world 46 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Toxic generally extremist instances both left and right finding out that not only can people de-Federate from them but that they will. And that it is their right.

Mostly explodingheads and hexbears. If you search for those two you can read about it all to your heart's Delight.

[–] offendicula@fedia.io 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Ahhh hexbear. I was there at the beginning, and left after a few months. It's strange to see their dysfunction become more widely known. There were some nice features on their fork though.

[–] Eldritch@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

They are not alone in their dysfunction. Even lemmy.ml and especially lemmygrad get quite toxic. The biggest difference is they tend to keep to themselves and stay in their echo chambers. And this can generally be pretty easily avoidable. But people still accidentally straight and upon them. I don't remember how I was browsing the other day but a post from their instance came up. And I clicked on it out of curiosity not realizing. Only to see someone inside there making cogent rational arguments getting down voted pretty hard. At which point I took a step back and looked at everything that was going on and realized with horror where both of us had wandered into. I specifically made a point of just informing him of where he was and what to expect. Which got plenty of down votes. I think I only said one more thing in the thread in response to one of the denizens and cut my losses.

The only thing different really about the hexxbears was the constant brigading outside their domain. And I say all this as a socialist myself. Just very anti-authoritarian. Those places are all fanfiction and charismatic hero worship.

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Ooh what features?

[–] Blamemeta@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't really see much EH, mostly shitposting about chris christie. Mostly HB brigading.

[–] CorrodedCranium@leminal.space 5 points 1 year ago

There was a significant amount of transphobic content coming from Exploding-Heads. You might be able to find some of it if you go to their meme communities

[–] Blamemeta@lemm.ee 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hexbear. They're tankies, and they brigade and spam a shitty meme. You can recognize the users because they all have pronouns in their username when no one else does. Just asshats, and I feel bad for the coder than fixed it so they could refederate, because almost everyone defederated with them. What a waste of his time.

[–] Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And they often use those huge emojis in their comments.

[–] MrShankles@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Apparently the huge emojis are more of a bug within lemmy itself. I'd love to see a fix because they can be annoying, but I believe there's other things on the priority list first... like individual users being able to block an entire instance would be a great feature. But the giant emojis getting fixed is also up there; I just don't know enough to say what the underlying issue is

[–] Nerd02@lemmy.basedcount.com 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's a single line of CSS. It's very easy to fix on the Lemmy web UI (not so much on Jerboa). At one point I even considered fixing it myself and making a PR but then other stuff came up and I had to disable emojis on my instance, so it's no longer a problem of mine unfortunately.

[–] MrShankles@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I just bought my first domain and am already starting to dive-in to self-hosting. Even if my server isn't used for the fediverse (at first), I'm excited to stumble my way around a new adventure lol

[–] Nerd02@lemmy.basedcount.com 1 points 1 year ago

Best of luck for your self hosting adventure! Great choice, it's well worth it.

[–] 0x0@social.rocketsfall.net 19 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I would like to see Lemmy used like PHPbb or vBulletin was back in the early 2000s - interest/hobby-specific instances designed to house a set of users with a few general discussion boards outside of the main topic to aid community-building. A lot of people seem very focused on joining instances that federate with as many instances as possible, but there's a lot of value to be found in going the opposite direction, I feel.

[–] QuazarOmega@lemy.lol 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why do you think so? To achieve that topic-specifc community it's not necessary to block out all the instances that don't align with those interests, that's what the local feed is all about no?

To me being conservative with defederations allows potential users to avoid feeling stressed that if they choose the wrong house for their account they might eventually miss out on something, which means they'll have to make a second account, which could face the same issue itself down the line.

[–] Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Defederating from extremistic or spammy instances should not be hurting regular users.

What I find annoying is when defederation happens because of individual communities on otherwise good instances. E.g. when that drama about shitjustworks started, because somebody created an empty The_Donald community there...

[–] QuazarOmega@lemy.lol 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Defederating from extremistic or spammy instances

If it was meant that way then yes, I agree

when that drama about shitjustworks started

What happened there?

[–] Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Not much. Somebody created a community called The_Donald (which wasn't even active) and the admin didn't immediately delete it. Then people that hate Trump demanded that their instance defederate because of that.

[–] QuazarOmega@lemy.lol 5 points 1 year ago

Oh wow, some people are a little too quick to think lol

[–] nix@merv.news 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Hopefully the LemmyBB ui starts getting more love too

[–] mikey@talk.neovibe.app 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Honestly focusing on UX would be a major boost for Lemmy. And when I say UX I don't mean just the look of it.. but the feel of it too. Making the experience smoother for users (and admins/mods).

[–] HamSwagwich@showeq.com 3 points 1 year ago

Anyone know of a vBulletin to Lemmy importer? I have a very old forum that dates back 20+ years that's still active I would like to convert, but it's not practical and I'm not going to lose that history or force the users to go elsewhere

[–] Corgana@startrek.website 7 points 1 year ago

startrek.website checking in

[–] Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 year ago

That's more or less the idea, just that you can use one account for all those forums. And sometimes interesting posts from other unknown forums show up in your main forum.

[–] DrQuint@lemm.ee 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

So the problems I'm reading here are mostly admin drama and community isolationism.

Which don't sound like problems. If anything, sounds like things sorting themselves out. I see hexbear politics-addled community, I block hexbear politics-addled community. Solved, no one else the wiser. Admin is a cunt and defederates from several places while barely hiding their emotional outburst to the change? I use the Lemmy Migration tool, solved, no one else the wiser.

And were NEVER the actual problems I had with Mastodon, much less even close to the top one that still plagues it (Discoverability).

[–] lemmyingly@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

If I understand correctly, the admin drama is no different to the mod drama on Reddit? It's just more exposed here than it is there?

[–] RobotToaster@infosec.pub 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Mastodon is full of netsplits caused by instances de-federating at the whims of various local BOFH.

[–] dan1101@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

Wow I don't think I've read BOFH since Slashdot. Bastard Operator From Hell.

[–] DmMacniel@feddit.de 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I guess that drama passed right over my head. Lucky me for having chosen the right instances right away (norden.social and feddit.de)?

[–] CorrodedCranium@leminal.space 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Jeez really makes me wonder what happened on Mastadon

[–] gabe@literature.cafe 9 points 1 year ago

So much. Just... so freaking much. There's quite literally hours and hours of content to sift thru on that end.

[–] Teal@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago

A very nice write-up. Thanks for sharing your insights! You’re right, these new platforms need time and experience to grow and thrive.

For how new some of these platforms are I think things are going well, recent dramas included.

[–] Chickenstalker@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

> drama

Out of Reddit to Lemmy I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.

[–] rar 1 points 1 year ago

Let's remember that freedom of speech is not the same as "freedom of being an asshole" or "freedom of forcing my own speech into other's throats". If you're so much into fighting for freedumb and want to let nazis to crash into your home party, fine, just stop wondering why some of the guests and your roommates are leaving in disgust.