this post was submitted on 19 Apr 2024
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Science Memes

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[–] Spzi@lemm.ee 81 points 7 months ago (4 children)

This meme is so wrong it is deliberate misinformation. The Guardian made an article which is probably this meme's source. It even linked to the original source, the Carbon Majors Report. But blatantly misquoted the CMR. For example, CMR says something like "100 fossil fuel producers responsible for 71% of industrial GHG emissions", but The Guardian (and meme posters) omit the italic bits.

What do they mean with producers? Not companies like Apple or Heinz, but simply organizations which produce fossil fuels. Duh. Shell, BP, but also entities like China's coal sector (which they count as one producer, although it consists of many entities). CMR also states 3rd type emissions are included. Which means emissions caused by "using" their "products", e.g. you burning gasoline in your car.

So yes, the downvoted guy saying "Consumer emissions and corporate emissions are the same emissions" is pretty spot on in this case, albeit most likely by accident. Rejected not for being wrong, but for not fitting into a narrative, which I call the wrong reasons. Please check your sources before posting. We live in a post-factual world where only narratives count and truth is just another feeling, because of "journalism" and reposts like this. Which is the infuriating part in this particular case. I guess you want to spread awareness about the climate crisis, which is good, but you cannot do so by propagandizing science and spreading lies.

All that from the top of my head. Both the ominous TG article and the fairly short report are easy to find. In just a couple of minutes you can check and confirm how criminally misquoted it was.

[–] geogle@lemmy.world 16 points 7 months ago (2 children)

There's a second more obvious component that people neglect in any statement like OPs.

These companies exist because people buy their products. We can blame companies, but fossil fuel use is a collective problem.

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 10 points 7 months ago (6 children)

Exactly. If you eat bananas that arrive in a port on a ship, that ship spewed out a lot of CO2. If everybody changed their habits and ate something locally grown instead, those emissions would not happen (but other emissions might happen instead). Every CO2 emission by a profit-driven company is going to be the result of a person buying one of their products.

We live in a society, and the amount of difference one person can make is pretty small. Often all of the options available to us are bad. But, this meme is worse.

The ridiculous aspect of this meme is that it shifts the blame onto companies, and allows people to pretend that their lifestyles and choices deserve none of the blame, and instead it's just some evil companies that are ruining the world. The unfortunate fact is that in this modern society, if you're living like a typical European or North American, even if you think of yourself as an environmentalist, your lifestyle probably results in a ton of CO2 emissions.

[–] Spzi@lemm.ee 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

While you guys kind of have a point, the specific argument you put forward is rather weak. Transportation accounts for an almost negligible part of the overall emissions of a product. Bulk freight cargo is super efficient. If you want to moan about transportation emissions, look at single people sitting in tons of steel making short trips.

The point you still have is that emissions are caused in the process of satisfying a demand. Consumers do have a partial responsibility. However I would object in that the problem cannot be solved from the consumer's position. It is a market failure. Markets have no incentive to internalize their externalities, that has to come from a different place; e.g. politics. Carbon pricing is an interesting mechanic, since it utilizes that same argument for good.

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 2 points 7 months ago

the specific argument you put forward is rather weak

I wasn't claiming to pick the most environmentally destructive thing that people do. I was just picking a random, easy-to-understand thing that seems innocuous but still contributes to climate change. People know that driving cars is bad for the environment, but often don't stop to consider that eating a banana could also be bad because of the shipping.

the problem cannot be solved from the consumer’s position

Not completely, but consumers can change their habits and make a significant dent in the problem. For example, "people sitting in tons of steel making short trips". If people stopped driving, or at least significantly reduced it, that would have a real effect.

I'd argue that the problem can't currently be solved by voting either. Yes, government regulation eventually has to be the answer, but right now there are too many people who would vote against that kind of a change, or who at least wouldn't make it a priority. And, with all the fossil-fuel special interest money flowing into politics, even if it is a priority for a voter, there will often be elections where both major party candidates are in the pocket of the oil industry.

If people change their own personal habits (i.e. stop driving) that makes a small dent in the problem. But, it also motivates them to try to campaign, run for office and vote for other people who will make that kind of a change. If you stop driving you realize how much cities are geared around driving. How many hidden subsidies drivers get, etc. If you keep driving but just vote for candidates who talk a good game about carbon taxes, when they back down on those promises you sigh but you aren't highly motivated to keep pushing.

[–] Prandom_returns@lemm.ee 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I'm sorry, but this is just foolish and very naive.

Let me just buy some locally grown bananas, in the north... Or locally produced computer monitor...

It is totally up to the governments to regulate emissions, with regulations.

Now, WHAT governments are elected IS down to people, but unfortunately, caring about the environment is stil not a priority to prople (in part due to said governments being in the pockets of the biggest emission producers).

If I want a banana, I'll get a banana. I will have no idea or information whether it's shipped with the shittiest fuel burning ship, or an electric locomotive.

Now if the government regulated what fuel burning ships can enter the port, etc, etc, we'd have change. Fewer, more expensive bananas, of course (people will be unhappy about that), but at least the emissions would be reduced, with little to no change of the individuals' habits.

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 6 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Let me just buy some locally grown bananas, in the north…

That's my point. You can't. If you want to not be responsible for those CO2 emissions you have to eat something else.

It is totally up to the governments to regulate emissions, with regulations.

Sure, but you also have personal agency. You can choose to eat beets instead of bananas. You can choose to pay to have an old monitor fixed by a local repair shop instead of buying a new one. Instead, people use the lack of government rules as an excuse to continue to live the way they want to live. They choose to blame corporations for polluting instead of their own choices as consumers.

If I want a banana, I’ll get a banana. I will have no idea or information whether it’s shipped with the shittiest fuel burning ship, or an electric locomotive.

Yes, because you don't want to know. You will never do that research. Admittedly, the research is hard to do. It's hard to do a complete calculation of all the CO2 costs of the entire chain of events that results in a banana on sale at a local supermarket vs. a locally grown beet.

People could choose to try to do that research, but they don't. It's hard, and it's depressing. Instead they'll feel good about recycling an aluminum can, and never think about the environmental impact of driving around the city in a car.

And will people vote for stricter emissions laws and/or carbon taxes? Some people will, many people will vote against it. Many of the supporters will also not make it a priority. And, if the party that promised carbon taxes and/or stricter emissions wins but then gets lobbied and doesn't enact those new laws, very few people are going to go out and protest.

The government's lack of action and the idea that corporations are really to blame for CO2 emissions is a convenient way for people to continue to live their massive energy footprint lives, while shifting the blame to someone else.

[–] Kratzkopf@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 7 months ago (1 children)

To add to your last two paragraphs: even if the elected parties enact the more environmentally friendly policies, many voters will be unsatisfied with that because they imagined a solution would pop up where they themselves would not be required to make sacrifices. I imagine memes like this could be a reason for that as they imply that corporations emit greenhouse gases totally decoupled from the people's consumption. I fully demand that corporations take more actions to reduce emissions although it will lower their profits, but I also ask (mainly) the privileged people who live in the global north to accept necessary reductions in lifestyle and consumption as a necessary consequence.

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[–] Spzi@lemm.ee 4 points 7 months ago

That's true. A lot more could be said about this, on various levels in various directions. Ultimately I don't think this systemic crisis can be solved on a consumer level. The attempt leads to the status quo; different subcultures with some people paying extra to calm their consciousness, while most don't care or cannot afford. I'm afraid if we try to work with individual sacrifice against economic incentives, the latter will win.

It's also true that some companies use their economic power as a political lever, to influence legislation in their favor. Or as a societal lever, to sway public opinion in their favor. I guess this meme here tries to address that. I honor the motive. Just the chosen vehicle is broken. With mountains of evidence supporting the cause, however, there are plenty of other, perfectly fine vehicles available.

[–] Kanda@reddthat.com 9 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Tfw companies only exist because customers buy their stuff

[–] usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca 9 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Sure, but why aren't these companies having to pay for the damage they cause? People wouldn't buy their stuff if it was the true price.

[–] Kanda@reddthat.com 3 points 7 months ago

I don't know, probably because they are somehow stronger than the local government and/or the country they operate in bend over backwards for 'job creators'. How come we bail them out with taxpayer money when they go tits up? I don't know.

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[–] radiant_bloom@lemm.ee 35 points 7 months ago

Do not cast fossil fuels into the fire, unless you want to fucking explode 🤯

[–] alsaaas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 25 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

~~It's 57 doing 80% now 🙃🙃~~

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/apr/04/just-57-companies-linked-to-80-of-greenhouse-gas-emissions-since-2016

Capitalism working as intended

EDIT: I was made aware that the headline is misleading

[–] Gloomy@mander.xyz 12 points 7 months ago

Only the it's not companies but entities which include China, the former soviet union and the Russian federation. This is such a fucking missleading title the guardian ran here.

https://carbonmajors.org/briefing/The-Carbon-Majors-Database-26913

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[–] uservoid1@lemmy.world 24 points 7 months ago

Isn't casting it into the fire the main issue with fossil fuel?

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 20 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Lmao global citizens asking for that, when I bet most don't give a shit

[–] Johanno@feddit.de 8 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Because oil companies paid millions or even billions for propaganda that climate change isn't real or not their fault.

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 4 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I think that's mostly just Western world shit. I'm talking about the vast majority of the world's population who aren't as comfortable that they'd care or willing to worsen their quality of life or pay for more etc. They're not victims of oil company propaganda, they are victims of their circumstances.

[–] Kratzkopf@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 7 months ago

Isn't that basically why laws need to be put in place ensuring that these high emitting companies (which are mostly from the global north) reduce their carbon emissions? The circumstances are often consequnce of ongoing western exploitation and they will just get worse if nothing is changed because it is not the rich countries which will suffer most from climate change.

[–] onlinepersona@programming.dev 15 points 7 months ago (6 children)

Tell me, who are these companies making all the emissions for? Are the global citizens consuming goods from another realm that don't require companies to make?

Anti Commercial-AI license

[–] alleycat@feddit.de 15 points 7 months ago (3 children)

No one but complete morons are asking to specifically make a product by emitting carbon dioxide. No company is emitting co2 for "the global citizens". They make products to earn money. Emissions are an avoidable by-product no one asked for.

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[–] Gabu@lemmy.world 13 points 7 months ago

Unfair comparison – Isildur was a great leader, defeated Sauron and resisted the dark pull of the One Ring for decades. Corporativist scum, on the other hand, brings no benefit to anyone.

[–] yiliu@informis.land 6 points 7 months ago

Isildur: BTW I'm selling these cool new One Ring™ limited edition rings, forged in darkness and bound to the One Ring...we've got sizes for men, women, elves, and dwarves!

Elrord: O shit gimme 5 of those bad boys

[–] CluckN@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago

Use paper straws so Whole Foods can sell individual slices of candied bacon in sealed plastic bags.

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