€20 Billion isn't really all that much for a particle accelerator that can be used for more than a decade when you consider the US plans to spend $842 billion on just the military this year.
this post was submitted on 05 Feb 2024
136 points (97.9% liked)
science
14786 readers
70 users here now
A community to post scientific articles, news, and civil discussion.
rule #1: be kind
<--- rules currently under construction, see current pinned post.
2024-11-11
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Yeah but finding more efficient ways to kill people is more important than this science stuff obviously
That's a really simplistic view. The military isn't just a killing machine, we get oil fields out of it too.
Fingers crossed it’ll destroy the planet killing everyone.
They just have to put that in the paperwork to secure the military funding.
BS! I found my used particle accelerator for under 100 bucks on Craigslist. I'm sending nano scale black holes over to my asshole neighbor since.
Now I'm all for smashing atoms and the LHC did a grand job with the Higgs. However are we sure just smashing things harder is going to be as revelatory as other things we could spend the money on? What other grand physics instruments could we build? For example LISA will be a massive step change in our gravitational detection capabilities?
Discovery is valuable even if it doesn't have immediate engineering applications. Much of our understanding of physics and the standard model has come from just smashing things together with higher and higher energy levels.
I think it's worthwhile science communication for them to be clearer about what is planned for testing. Some handwaves about "it will help us maybe find dark matter" is much less compelling to me than something concrete like "we have models which predict dark matter particles emerge at X TeV, this will test them."
Not that I'm opposed to open discovery either. Maybe when you collide electrons at the higher energy, they turn into pure gravitons and we'll find the GUT? But I like to think there's some deliberation and intent behind a project that's roadmapped to 2070, beyond just long term job security for some particle physicists.
we have models which predict dark matter particles emerge at X TeV
This runs at the problem that no, we don't have any model that puts anything attainable as "it's probable we'll find something here, or else we will learn that all we know is wrong". The extra energy is all of the "we don't expect anything new here, but we expect something new somewhere" kind.
But if you start talking about luminance, this changes quickly.
Im sure theres technical papers out there on the proposed merits.
they were talking about other experiments, like lisa... not immediate engineering applications at all...
Yeah it's valuable, but is it really the best value for our money?
Considering really the only difference between peaceful prosperous modernity and the barbarity our ancestors experienced is technology, yes.
Yeah, I have a hard time getting excited about a moderately more capable synchrotron and I have a Physics background. I'm not opposed to a larger synchroton, but I'm not confident that they'll find anything particularly interesting like I was with the LHC.
Personally, I'd like to see a bigger effort to develop high energy plasma Wakefield accelerators. I think they have the potential to work with a wider variety of particles and shouldn't need months of pump down and cooling after any interruption. Plus minitiaturization of plasma accelerators have the potential to be disruptive for medical applications.
Just one more collider bro, one more I swear. And we'll know everything.
So glad someone else posted this lmfao. I had that meme itself the image somewhere no idea where now. Immediately came to mind.
Bro please one more collider
You got any more of those ... colliders?
Lol good point. We will come out of this with more questions than we started with...
Which are sometimes as or more important than answers, but it does tend to reveal that it's "turtles all the way down"
While true, it may be time to realize that we will never have all the answers. And the amount of questions that need answering will trend towards infinity.
Imagine how many people can be fed with €20,000,000,000. Or homeless housed. Or children educated.
Instead, a few elite scientists (likely from a well connected family) will be conducting research that is basically unsolvable and is incomprehensible to human minds.
There is also a high likelihood that the technological discoveries will be used for military purposes. Such as displacing and/or killing those homeless, starving, uneducated children.
The cherry on top is the impact on the environment. The amount of precious metals required for such a project requires heavy mineral extraction. A particle collider uses massive amounts of power as well.
But yes, we will create groundbreaking (literally) new schools of mathematics that will disprove earlier theories. Until of course it is disproven itself by yet another future theory. Unless we all kill ourselves before then, that is...
"we used to think that this was what we didn't know, but thanks to exhaustive and expensive research, it is now this that we don't know."
Instead, a few elite scientists (likely from a well connected family) will be conducting research
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how research at CERN works. Tens of thousands of physicists from all over the world work either on the information gathered by CERN or to design experiments to get further data from the colliders under CERN's purview. Many of the people contributing to the research are students from different stages of academia. They are not rich or connected people but just smart people motivated to contribute and better our understanding of the universe
Last one, disappointingly, didn't break reality. Fingers crossed this time.
People think our timeline broke with Harambe, but it actually started in 2008 with the LHC and were in the broken reality now.
El. Psy. Kongroo.
Dr Sabine Hossenfelder at the Munich Center for Mathematical Philosophy, said there was no evidence the FCC would reveal anything about dark matter or dark energy and was critical of the proposals.
“The truth is that the most likely thing such a machine would do is to just make better measurements of some constants in the standard model, and that’s it,” she said. “I do not think that the societal relevance is high enough to justify such a big investment.
“I fear that funding such an experiment will mean that a lot of smart people will waste their time on research that will not lead to any progress. The LHC had a good motivation. The FCC has not. Particle physicists have to accept that their time is over. This is the age of quantum physics.”
On the other hand, Sabine's objection to the project makes me skeptical of my own doubts. If she's against it, it must be a great idea!
I think Hossenfelder was bought some years ago by a conservative think tank. Or at least that would be one explanation for her abysmal takes. Maybe its just pure ego that makes a person act like this though?
I know a guy who can do it cheaper. Seriously though, there has to be a better way to do this. What about that laser based accelerator. LWFA? That seemed pretty neat.
I'm ALMOST certain that people at cern really know their stuff.
Would you say you are Cerntain?
Just one more collider bro.
Collider?? I barely know her!
I’m glad they’re finally going to unlock the secrets of the universe. Been waiting forever for that to drop.
