this post was submitted on 22 Nov 2023
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[–] MataVatnik@lemmy.world 35 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ah yes, ethnonationalism. A core western value.

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

Nationalism definitely at least used to be

[–] GentlemanLoser@ttrpg.network 27 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Yeah let's get some of them middle eastern value instead so we can start throwing queers off buildings!

[–] MadSurgeon@sh.itjust.works 37 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Jewish conservatives are only a slight improvement on that front.

[–] Grayox@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 year ago

Same with American Conservatives.

[–] Hyperreality@kbin.social 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The majority of Jews are at least partly Mizrahi, ie. of Middle-eastern or North African descent. IRC Jewish conservatives are more likely to be Mizrahi, where as Ashkenzi ('European') Jews are more likely to be left-wing.

Prime example: Ben Gvir, the far right minister of National Security, is of Iraqi/Kurdish descent. So if anything this whole thing is arguably Middle-Eastern Muslim values vs. Middle-Eastern Jewish values.

As you say, the Israeli far right aren't great on gay rights either. Certainly not ideological bed fellows of Dana International.

[–] Grayox@lemmy.ml 18 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The radical Islamic revolutionaries were backed heavily by America during the Cold War as a check agaisnt Communism spreading to the Middle East. The current state of the Middle Eastern values is due to American Intervention in the region, because radical regious governments are better than Communist Governments in the eyes of Global Capital.

[–] nonailsleft@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] Grayox@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

I was more referring to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan that the USA backed against the Soviets there. In Iran the USA backed the Shah, which was over thrown by the Islamic Revolutionary Front in 1979.

[–] Kleinbonum@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Counterpoint: the Ba'athists in Iraq were also heavily backed by America, even though they were pan-Arab Socialists.

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[–] lntl@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago

i want to hate you, but there's a kernel of truth in there so i cannot

[–] MataVatnik@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

You're acting like the Jewish orthodoxy is down with the gays.

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[–] oatscoop@midwest.social 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Next you're going to say something silly like "fascism, greed, ethnic nationalism, and religious extremism are the problems -- and they can happily thrive in every major culture on the planet."

Get out of here with that nonsense! You have to pick a side!

[–] xantoxis@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Everyone is capable of crimes, which is why when someone steals from me, I just kill the next person I see (and their entire ethnicity)

[–] oatscoop@midwest.social 5 points 1 year ago

That's the spirit

If I don't, there's a finite chance that their children will bomb my children. If I do, there's an even higher chance that their children will bomb my children, which gives me the impetus to bomb their whole family. I call that a win!

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[–] Sloogs@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Gotta be honest with you, arguments about colonization kind of ring hollow when they were literally the original tribes living there and then had their lands colonized away from them, but still form a cohesive ethnic group thousands of years later. Unless we've started to impose some arbitrary statute of limitations I'm not aware on colonialism so that we exclude Israel from being colonized and the Jews exiled? Denying Jews rights would be par for the course throughout history I guess. I condemn acts of genocide, but I'm not going to say Jews don't have some rights to the territory.

The same people saying Jews are colonizers will also talk about how literally any other ethnic group (especially Native Americans) should be given their land rights back. Their reasoning gives me a headache because it's cognitively dissonant, and I've had a few agree and realize the situation is much more complicated and nuanced after I pointed the double standard out to them.

If we want to criticize the Israel state and their military for their policies and actions, giddy up. I'm on board. If we want to have discussions about colonialism, sorry, but I'm getting off this ride because I can't justify moralizing over it

[–] Doorbook@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's misleading.

Current Palestinians are native to the land, they are descendent of the "early Jew". They might change language or religion to be: Palestinians Jew, Arab Jew, Palestinians Christian, or Palestinians Muslims Arab.

You can read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DIn_recent_years%2C_genetic_studies%2Care_related_to_each_other.?wprov=sfla1

In fact reading about European Jew Genetics say they are different:

"Genetic studies indicate that Ashkenazim have Levantine and European (mainly southern European) ancestry. They draw diverging conclusions about the degree and sources of European admixture; some focus on the European genetic origin in Ashkenazi maternal lineages, which contrasts with the predominantly Middle Eastern genetic origin in paternal lineages."

Further more they were not "exiled":

"Jews migrated to southern Europe from the Middle East voluntarily for opportunities in trade and commerce. Following Alexander the Great's conquests, Jews migrated to Greek settlements in the Eastern Mediterranean, spurred on by economic opportunities. Jewish economic migration to southern Europe is also believed to have occurred during the Roman period."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DEarly_Jewish_communities_in_Europe%2C-Beginning_in_the%26text%3DJews_migrated_to_southern_Europe%2Cspurred_on_by_economic_opportunities.?wprov=sfla1

Even then, the reason why they are occupier is because they act that way, they commited multiple documented massacres, admited by their own soldiers, and refuse the right for people who fled war to comeback.

Reading about colonization of North America gave a lot of insight and the similarities are fucked up.

What even worse is, the literally desrroy people farms and homes and kick them out to live there, compare to North America where people might lived in new cities.

Here read about the village that become a resort and they build a car park on top of mass graves.

The Tantura massacre took place on the night of 22–23 May 1948 during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, when around 40-200 Palestinian Arab villagers from Tantura were massacred by the Alexandroni Brigade, which would shortly thereafter become part of the newly formed Israeli Defense Force. The massacre occurred following Tantura's surrender, a village of roughly 1,500 people in 1945 located near Haifa. The victims were buried in a mass grave, which today serves as a car park for the nearby Tel Dor beach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre?wprov=sfla1

[–] Sloogs@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

But that's also misleading.

Further more they were not β€œexiled”:

Jews migrated to southern Europe from the Middle East voluntarily for opportunities in trade and commerce. Following Alexander the Great’s conquests, Jews migrated to Greek settlements in the Eastern Mediterranean, spurred on by economic opportunities. Jewish economic migration to southern Europe is also believed to have occurred during the Roman period.

This is sort of disingenuous because even your own article talks about many other reasons for the migrations that you're leaving out.

Jews left ancient Israel for a number of causes, including a number of push and pull factors. More Jews moved into these communities as a result of wars, persecution, unrest, and for opportunities in trade and commerce.

In 63 BCE, the Siege of Jerusalem saw the Roman Republic conquer Judea, and thousands of Jewish prisoners of war were brought to Rome as slaves. After gaining their freedom, they settled permanently in Rome as traders.[64] It is likely that there was an additional influx of Jewish slaves taken to southern Europe by Roman forces after the capture of Jerusalem by the forces of Herod the Great with assistance from Roman forces in 37 BCE. It is known that Jewish war captives were sold into slavery after the suppression of a minor Jewish revolt in 53 BCE, and some were probably taken to southern Europe.[65]

The first and second centuries CE saw a series of unsuccessful large-scale Jewish revolts against Rome. The Roman suppression of these revolts led to wide-scale destruction, a very high toll of life and enslavement. The First Jewish-Roman War (66–73 CE) resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Second Temple. Two generations later, the Bar Kokhba Revolt (132–136 CE) erupted. Judea's countryside was devastated, and many were killed, displaced or sold into slavery.[69][70][71][72] Jerusalem was rebuilt as a Roman colony under the name of Aelia Capitolina, and the province of Judea was renamed Syria Palaestina.[73][74] Jews were prohibited from entering the city on pain of death. Jewish presence in the region significantly dwindled after the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt.[75]

With their national aspirations crushed and widespread devastation in Judea, despondent Jews migrated out of Judea in the aftermath of both revolts, and many settled in southern Europe. In contrast to the earlier Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, the movement was by no means a singular, centralized event, and a Jewish diaspora had already been established before.

During both of these rebellions, many Jews were captured and sold into slavery by the Romans. According to the Jewish historian Josephus, 97,000 Jews were sold as slaves in the aftermath of the first revolt.[76] In one occasion, Vespasian reportedly ordered 6,000 Jewish prisoners of war from Galilee to work on the Isthmus of Corinth in Greece.[77] Jewish slaves and their children eventually gained their freedom and joined local free Jewish communities.[78]

Jews migrated at various times throughout their history, either through direct exile or religious persecution that resulted in migrations. Some notable events are these:

The Assyrian captivity (or the Assyrian exile) is the period in the history of ancient Israel and Judah during which several thousand Israelites from the Kingdom of Israel were forcibly relocated by the Neo-Assyrian Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_captivity

Archaeological studies have revealed that, although the city of Jerusalem was utterly destroyed, other parts of Judah continued to be inhabited during the period of the exile. Most of the exiled did not return to their homeland, instead travelling westward and northward. Many settled in what is now northern Israel, Lebanon, and Syria. The Iraqi Jewish, Persian Jewish, Georgian Jewish, and Bukharan Jewish communities are believed to derive their ancestry in large part from these exiles; these communities have now largely immigrated to Israel.[6][7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity

The Temple was on the site of what today is the Dome of the Rock. The gates led out close to Al-Aqsa Mosque (which came much later).[32] Although Jews continued to inhabit the destroyed city, Emperor Hadrian established a new city called Aelia Capitolina. At the end of the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135 CE, many of the Jewish communities were massacred and Jews were banned from living inside Jerusalem.[28] A pagan Roman temple was set up on the former site of Herod's Temple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple#Destruction

There were events such as these of compulsory migrations along with voluntary ones motivated by religious persecution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora

The genetics thing is more or less true implying there was still a continuity of people in the region, although Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Christians are still closer genetically to the Jewish diaspora than Palestinian Arabs, who seem to see themselves as culturally and ethnically distinct from Jews (and vice versa), despite all evidence to the contrary.

All Jewish groups were found to be genetically closer to each other than to Palestinians and Muslim Kurds. Kurdish, North African Sephardi, and Iraqi Jews were found to be genetically indistinguishable while slightly but significantly differing from Ashkenazi Jews. In relation to the region of the Fertile Crescent, the same study noted; "In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors", which the authors suggested was due to migration and admixture from the Arabian Peninsula into certain current Arabic-speaking populations during the period of Islamic expansion.[30]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Paternal_line

I guess the question is whether Jews and Palestinians can reconcile things based on their shared history and genetic grounds following Arabization. I'm definitely not saying Palestinians have no right to those lands either, but the current situation most definitely is in part the result of colonization of the Jews/Palestinians at various points throughout their history. So I still feel it's odd to call them colonizers depending on how far back your lens of history goes.

Does that mean people should be slaughtering each other? No, absolutely not. I'll read up on Tantura.

[–] CommanderM2192@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

It's a good thing we didn't colonize all of the Middle East to replace traditional regional values such as slavery, sexism, "women can't be raped", child brides, etc. Can't go imposing "Western Values" or we'd be the real assholes.

[–] schnaggle@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Israel wasn’t just started by immigration from Europe. It was also the immigration of Jewish communities that had been expelled from Arab countries. These communities existed in the Middle East for centuries. They’re not white. Sadly, there are no significant Jewish populations left in Arabic countries.

This post erases all the indigenous, Middle Eastern Israelis.

[–] diffaldo@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago

israel doesnt treat all the jews same tho

it seems they are racist as other nations. espicially treatment of non white jews is very bad.

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[–] steakmeout@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

OK now do Islamic Colonialism.

[–] Grayox@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Islamic Colonialism is bad too, if you make a post about it I'll happily upvote it.

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