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submitted 10 months ago by dumples@kbin.social to c/mensliberation@lemmy.ca

Harping on people to get married from up in the ivory tower fails to engage with reality of life in the dating trenches.

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[-] zarathustra0@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

I like the suggestion that we concern ourselvrs more with the quality of men's internal lives, but I do worry we're still objectifying men as 'the problem'.

[-] Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 10 months ago

Seriously. We can't just call men "the problem". We have to address the problems men are having in their social lives and in dating. Men are not being given a fair shot to bring their best selves.

[-] Redhotkurt@kbin.social 1 points 10 months ago

It'll stop once it stops being a problem. FTA:

He had recently read about a high school creative writing assignment in which boys and girls were asked to imagine a day from the perspective of the opposite sex. While girls wrote detailed essays showing they had already spent significant time thinking about the subject, many boys simply refused to do the exercise or did so resentfully.

I mean, we're not just talking about the ability to communicate (which is important), but the basic ability to empathize. If men (in general) are unwilling to even consider the female point of view, is it any wonder why women have a difficult time dating? This isn't happening in a vacuum; there are real reasons why this is happening.

[-] zarathustra0@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

Think of the structural issues which have caused this to be the case. Blaming men for not achieving an externally defined target isn't going to help anyone.

Hate the game, not the player.

[-] Surp@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

You couldn't be more in your own echo chamber. If other men are telling you woman also act the same way as some men and also have issues and you refuse to see another position or point of view you are the problem.

[-] AtmaJnana@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

You take one cherry-picked anecdote and then generalize that to the entire population. You are the problem.

[-] dumples@kbin.social 0 points 10 months ago

Navigating interpersonal relationships in a time of evolving gender norms and expectations “requires a level of emotional sensitivity that I think some men probably just lack, or they don’t have the experience,” he added.

I like the quote above about this topic but it does still seem like men are the problem. The problem is that we as a society haven't taught those skills and worse yet reinforce the opposite. We should be concerned with men's internal lives and mold them to fit into modern society

[-] gapbetweenus@feddit.de 1 points 10 months ago

I feel like at least in Europe a lot of people see marriage as an outdated concept.

[-] jet@hackertalks.com 1 points 7 months ago

There seems to be an assumption here that the lack of marriage rates is solely due to men being unsuitable. I'd like to see sources and data on that.

It takes two to tango, there are communities with higher marriage rates would be interesting research to see what factors differ amongst communities that impact marriage rates.

[-] PotentiallyAnApricot@beehaw.org 0 points 10 months ago

I’m really glad this article exists, but i wish it went bit further. Nobody of any gender should be pressured to participate in a sexual and romantic and legal entanglement. Conditions for dating are awful and misogyny is way too prevalent, but there is simply no world in which it is normal or fine to say “people need to be married for their own good and the good of their children”. How extremely regressive and gross. Single people are not responsible for the failings of the society they live in. If single people truly do have worse outcomes, then the solution is to change systems of financial oppression and create better social safety nets and offer more services, not tell people that they have to get into long term romantic relationships and create little nuclear families for socioeconomic reasons. We have already seen the outcomes of forcing people to get married and have babies or else. It wasn’t good back then, and it’s not going to help now either.

[-] dumples@kbin.social 1 points 10 months ago

That is a great point and I wish they went further on the better social safety nets. If you really want healthy children that should be the focus regardless of gender of the parent. I think its odd when people talk about how marriage is only for children or you need to be married to have children its gross and so old fashioined.

[-] teuast@lemmy.ca 1 points 10 months ago

yeah like why can't people just get married if they want to get married, or not get married if they don't want to get married? has never made sense to me

[-] dumples@kbin.social 1 points 10 months ago

Whenever I hear people talk about marriage rates and birth rates I get disgusted. Like we're a bunch of animals in a zoo

[-] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

There have been scientific studies to determine if humans are monogamous or not ... it was inconclusive ... we like to think that we can or should be paired together for life and live happily ever after but in reality, most of us are not.

The majority of my friends get together for a few years and then divorce, separate or live together in a personal hell because they feel they have to.

I have friends in Quebec in Montreal that have been together for 50 years now. They never had children worked as artists and writers their whole lives and pretty much had a free life between themselves. They made an agreement with each other when they started living together that every five years, they would sit down and discuss if they wanted to continue their relationship. They've been doing that ever since.

I do that in a way with my wife every few years ... we also don't have kids ... we just sit down and talk about whether or not we want to continue. It's not done during a crisis, a falling out or when we're angry or out of sorts ... we try to have it when we're clearly thinking of things but it's not easy ... it's not an easy topic to discuss ... which is also why it's important to have. After 28 years, we still choose to be together.

[-] dumples@kbin.social 0 points 10 months ago

The current assumptions and expectations that society has about monogamy and commitment are insane. The idea that one person should meet all of your social, relationship and sexual needs is insane. Especially for those people who consider being attracted / look at other people / looking at porn to someone else as cheating. Like you don't stop feeling physical attraction or even get crushes if you are committed. You just don't do anything that violate other peoples trust.

The queer communities take on monogamy and commitment that does have any assumptions is really the best method going forward. Not to mention the removal of gender expectations for house work etc. Its exactly like you described it. An on-going discussion about what your commitment means and what is and isn't allowed. It priories the relationship over everything else.

[-] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 0 points 10 months ago

I think one of the biggest issues everyone glosses over is .... we change during our lifetimes.

We are not the same person in our 20s, our 30s, our 40s for all kinds of reasons ... our work, our situations, events in our lives, trauma, biological changes, genetics or just psychological changes. Some people stay the same sexually and stay the same throughout their lives, whether its being straight, bi, gay or anything else ... I know some people who changed over time from being straight, to bi, to gay or to just asexual ... in one way to another. I'm sure everyone know people like this. It's human nature, most people are not born a simple being that stays the same forever, we evolve and change sometimes because we want to, we have to and other times against our will and biology.

So to have an ever changing pair of people living together ... we should not expect them to stay the same forever and want to be together indefinitely.

But the inverse is also true too ... maybe the two 20 year olds accept one another but change when they're 30 ... and now the 30 year olds now accept each other at this age ... and on and on.

[-] dumples@kbin.social 2 points 10 months ago

Exactly. People and relationships should change and mature. We should also look at different measures of success. A couple of was married for 15 years and then got a divorce but don't hate each other. That is a successful relationship but it didn't last an entire lifetime

[-] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

A big part is diminishing religiosity. There is little point in getting married if you aren't religious. Thanks to progress made by LGBT couples, most of the legal benefits of marriage are shared by domestic partnerships. Traditionalists on the left and the right make a big deal of this, but it is of negligible factual importance.

[-] dumples@kbin.social 0 points 10 months ago

I don't think most people who get married do it for religious reasons or even to start a family in the US anymore. People do it since they see it a formal a commitment and want to announce their love in public.

[-] mumblerfish@lemmy.world 0 points 10 months ago

That only covers one angle, if people do it for religious reasons, not if they don't do it because of religion. I'm not getting married, and the religious connotations of even a secular wedding is a significant chunk of why.

[-] Jimmyeatsausage@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

There's also a million legal reasons to get married... If there weren't, same sex marriage would probably have never made it to the Supreme Court. Everything from insurance coverage, employment benefits, credit rating, child custody, transfer of property following death, medical decisions, and a bunch of other very secular, very important benefits are conferred via legal marriage.

[-] Coreidan@lemmy.world -1 points 10 months ago

“Ask women what dating is like”. Good idea if you want a biased one sided opinion.

This article is vomit.

[-] AFaithfulNihilist@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

There is a widespread, socially disruptive, and sometimes life threatening epidemic of unfuckable dudes.

There are challenges with expectations and entitlements on all sides, but the unfuckable dudes are not rising to meet the challenges.

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[-] forrgott@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago

Ask a woman what dating is like. You, personally. I dare you.

Only issue is, clearly you won't listen to their answer.

[-] Coreidan@lemmy.world 0 points 10 months ago

Odd take. You do realize that a relationship is about TWO people right? It’s not all about you. Shocker right?

[-] Dkarma@lemmy.world 0 points 10 months ago

Yes and one of those ppl is statistically more likely to kill the other. How are u so dense u don't get his point.

Yes a relationship is 2 people. That's not relevant here. If one person is shit why do both people need to "work on things"

News flash... They don't.

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[-] HikingVet@lemmy.ca -1 points 10 months ago

Well, considering dating takes at least 2 people (depending on how you live your life, and yes non-monagamy and polyamory are vaild), asking only one group is incredibly biased.

[-] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 10 months ago

You.... missed the point of the article completely.

[-] HikingVet@lemmy.ca -1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Please explain how this isn’t a bigoted point of view

Ms. Kearney, for example, acknowledges that improving men’s economic position, especially men without college degrees, is an important step toward making them more attractive partners.

[-] HikingVet@lemmy.ca -1 points 10 months ago

Biggest issue with the article. NO male voices, and it's repeating the same lines I have heard since the mid 00's.

Now I acknowledge that there hasn't been much movement on the dating front, but men are only half the problem, as they are only half the population.

They would change in a hurry as a group if they needed to, but men aren't a monolith and neither are women.

You want men to be better, be better yourself. The article is garbage by saying men need to step up while not talking to them about the issues they face in the dating world. ESPECIALLY if they aren't Hetronormative.

[-] forrgott@lemm.ee 0 points 10 months ago

So, men are only a problem because...women are the problem?

Wow.

Fuck's sake, worry about yourself. You want better? Deserve it. Or not, and settle for less. Whatever.

[-] HikingVet@lemmy.ca -1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

An article that wonders why people aren't getting married says they went out and only asked one side what the problem was. 🤔

Doesn't even seem balanced....

Edit: as a romance favourable aroace, the dating world was a nightmare, even if you do everything "right". Which is why I no longer look to find companionship.

Do better or not, there are garbage people in all genders and the prevailing "men bad" when it comes to dating is just as toxic as what the men are doing.

The article also doesn't suggest any possible solutions.

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this post was submitted on 13 Nov 2023
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