TL;DR: The European Commission is launching an anti-subsidy investigation into Chinese electric vehicle makers, potentially leading to higher import duties. This move aims to protect Europe's auto industry and address concerns of dependency on China. If Chinese EVs are found to have an unfair advantage due to subsidies, it could impact their growth in Europe and lead to retaliatory measures. The investigation reflects growing geopolitical tensions and could influence the global EV market. (via ChatGPT)
this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2023
139 points (97.9% liked)
Europe
8324 readers
3 users here now
News/Interesting Stories/Beautiful Pictures from Europe πͺπΊ
(Current banner: Thunder mountain, Germany, π©πͺ ) Feel free to post submissions for banner pictures
Rules
(This list is obviously incomplete, but it will get expanded when necessary)
- Be nice to each other (e.g. No direct insults against each other);
- No racism, antisemitism, dehumanisation of minorities or glorification of National Socialism allowed;
- No posts linking to mis-information funded by foreign states or billionaires.
Also check out !yurop@lemm.ee
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Maybe Europe should step up its game and actually finally start producing proper EVs for accessible prices. I'm sorry, but banning chinese EVs won't save us from climate change. This is a move to save the european billionaire class that owns all of these companies that refuse to innovate here. I say: let the chinese bring their EVs over. It's capitalism after all :) Let them compete. Wasn't that the story they kept telling us? About how competition breeds innovation? Funny how that is no longer the case now that true competition exists and not just a bunch of european car manufacturers that make up a monopoly to keep us buying their shitty expensive cars.
Sure do this. But maybe at the same time see where these western manufacturers are profiting excessively and get that under control too because these electric cars are too damn expensive. At least here in the US they are.
The ICE aren't any better. My god, what you can spend on a vehicle these days is insane, and you know it's going to be trash in 5 years.
It is almost as if the entire concept of owning a vehicle for the 2-3 trips a day most people take is not a very efficient concept.
You mean 2-3 trips per week, right? Maybe with kids it gets one per day or every two days? laughs in 100 percent homeoffice
My 2018 car has absolutely no issues.
In the EU they would struggle to significantly cut the purchase price without screwing themselves with their liability with leased cars, particularly those on PCP (which is one of the most common ways to buy a brand new car) as the manufacturers own the liability on that final payment (via their finance arm) not the purchaser. If they cut new prices significantly then older cars will also see a significant drop in resale price, those final payments are already finely balanced.
VW in particular fucked up as they put in a janky in car control system after removing all the buttons, stuck the largest battery behind the expensive high performance motor setup only (more people want range not performance at this point, this was a cheap counter productive cash grab trying to force people to a more expensive model), and was at least a generation behind on the EV side of things for charging and efficiency. Oh, and they killed the cheapest version of the car as well. Now they shut down their EV factory and fire workers, blaming falling industry wide EV sales rather than their own fuck ups, and they have the most to lose from China eating their business from the bottom.
Iβm sure itβs not as simple, but my first take on this was: Europe doesnβt invest in EVs, but China does. They start to loose the Chinese market and are about to loose their own market to China as well. Then politics steps in to "rescue" their own companies but all that does is shelter them from the pressure to adapt and evolve, and in the end theyβre beyond hope and left in the dust while the advanced Chinese cars dominate everything.
Countering subsidies with import taxes is a different story ofc. But it certainly feels like the European car industry is in decline and itβs probably their own fault. If not in Europe most certainly in China.
I should add that I have no idea what Iβm talking about here, so feel free to tell me where Iβm wrong.
China has been doing this for centuries now. You couldnt even break into the chinese consumer space if the CCP decides that you might be a danger to their own industry.
So it's kinda hypocritical to now claim the EU is doing something because its china.
Take a look at what VW did to the British car market with illegal subsidies from the German Government. Then look at VW being caught in the emissions scandle. Long story short, cheating is profitable.
British car manufacturers didn't need Germany to dismantle themselves. The only reason you even have a car industry left is because German companies came in, bought up those husks of mismanagement out of (near) bankruptcy, and turned them around.
Long story short: Don't let nobs run your companies. They were as good at deciding what customers want as Homer Simpson is at designing a car and caused strike after strike by being, well, arrogant nobs telling the peasants to eat cake.
Correct, that was the thinking what had happened at the time but when you realise VWs were being sold about 5k below market cost you realise there was no competing. Look deeper.
If you mean "German cars were cheaper" there's an easy explanation: Unlike the UK ones German manufacturers managed to introduce automation by negotiating its introduction with the workers, who realised that it's necessary to keep the industry but got concessions such as automation first being used for the most back-breaking stuff, not what would save the most money. Meanwhile, in the UK, well, strikes. Strikes, strikes, and strikes.
I'd like to see a source on the below market cost bit, and even if why didn't the UK simply outlaw it. But yes German industry played it fast and loose back then, e.g. it didn't became illegal under German law to bribe foreigners abroad until 2000, on the contrary you would get a tax write-off. Not like the UK operated a different regime, though, you simply weren't as good at it when it came to cars. You're more into the tax haven kind of business, shuffling money discretely to crown dependencies which unlike manufacturing is not dependent on riffraff workers.
No, Germany's government colluded with the manufacturers to charge them less tax to purposefully give them an advantage. By about Β£5k. You're not providing sources for your claims so I don't feel obliged to.
Well that'd be direct state aid which EU rules forbid on the internal market so... I guess you should've joined earlier. Or had an actual trade policy. Something like that, instead of bemoaning the evil Teutons harassing the poor, poor British Empire with its utter lack of sovereignty. I know it's a popular narrative but it hasn't been true since WWII. Modulo football of course. We'd love to not bully you there, see you take second place instead of the Brazilians, but, alas, you know.
Also, I don't believe that number for a second. Why? Because a VW Golf cost Β£2099 in 1976, in today's pounds (which I assume that your Β£5k are) that's as per Bank of England Β£13,448.89. That's so off scale for a subsidy it's not even funny, and it would also mean that all those other countries there subsidised their cars as VWs aren't cheaper than the Fords and Citroens and whatnot. The Golf is in fact right in between two not entirely incomparable Vauxhalls. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, yours is one, mine aren't.
I heavily suspect that you read an article wrong somewhere. "(some) UK car manufacturers needed to sell at a loss (and in some cases that might've been Β£5k) because they didn't manage to introduce automation" sounds more like it.
And it was the Japanese who kicked that off, btw, the German car industry had to react to it to stay competitive just as the rest of the world.
I'm talking after the UK was in the EU but after that first waffley paragraph of bollocks I think I'll stop talking to you now.
load more comments
(3 replies)
The Germans and the French wrecked British car manufacturers because they were better, not because of subsidies. British cars at the time sucked.
You do get that those two things are related right?
It is not like European companies are not investing into EVs, but that EVs are different. The big advantage is battery technology, but most batteries are bought from third parties. Only Tesla and BYD have large battery production of their own. So everybody else buys them from other companies. So it is hard to be better on that technological front. The rest is a generally nice interior and software. Interior is something Europeans can do, but it has relativly little value add. What is more important is software and that is difficult for manufacturing based companies like traditional car companies.
This is not to say that European companies can not win this or lack innovation. They make good EVs, but so do the Chinese and that means a war on price. Europe is in a disadvantage on that. However there are solutions being planned like large battery plants by European manufacturers and better software development.
It is not like European companies are not investing into EVs
Only Tesla and BYD have large battery production of their own
These two statements seem at odds...
Also volkswagen are building factories and bmw are doing partnerships or something. But yeah, they should've been doing that 10 years ago...
EVs are more the just batteries and both Volkswagen and BMW have set up production lines for EVs they developed themself. That is certainly investment. However they are using batteries from other companies. They are catching up with tesla and BYD by also setting up battery factories now. It is a bit late, but maybe not too late.
They should have done it 20 years ago, but Big Oil and Big Car are besties. I live in EU and I think it's okay to let them die. They made fun of people demanding EVs. They spread misinformation. Hindered development. Let them pay the price. However, I don't wanna rely on China either. Public transportation should be the answer.
China subsidizes EV production, and EU companies struggle to keep up. Now EU politics wants to make Chinese EVs more expensive?
In face of climate change, I can think of two more favorable solutions:
- Subsidize your own EV production. No one should be willing to buy an ICE anymore, anyways.
- Invest in public transit, bike infrastructure, cargo bikes. No one (except rural folks) should be dependent on owning a car, anyways.
Invest in public transit, bike infrastructure, cargo bikes. No one (except rural folks) should be dependent on owning a car, anyways.
This is very nice, but even better would be to make rents in cities dirt cheap again. First step would be to not sell any land but only lease it. And stop subsidizing the fucking countryside that grabs the wealth of society, ruins its political landscape and destroys the planet for it in return.
Why not require the Chinese car brands to start 49:51 joint ventures with European firms if they want access to the European market. It would be reciprocal to the burdens placed on European firms in the Chinese market, or not?
How about we let the chinese sell their EVs here?
I'm sorry, but by limiting my access to good, cheap EVs you're not going to win my vote.
I do not care about BMW, or Volkswagen, or some other European company producing really expensive, shitty EVs just so that we keep buying combustion engine cars, so that they can force us to keep using fossil fuels and buy their shitty expensive spare parts that always break (parts which EVs generally don't have).
I'm sorry, but my biggest worry right now is climate change, not keeping a couple of europe's billionaires pockets stuffed with money. I truly do not care one bit about the billionaires that own the companies mentioned above. The european consumer should have access to a cheap alternative to combustion engine cars. This move exists only to protect the interests of the rich.
For all my life I've been hearing stories about how competition under capitalism breeds innovation. Yet when true competition appears, suddenly we start throwing the book at it. So am I supposed to buy an overpriced electric vehicle made in Europe just because our billionaires don't see a reason yet to invest in EVs? Let them fight. Let competition come over here. Let's see what this business is all about.
view more: next βΊ