this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2024
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As a strong supporter of open-source and community-funded projects like Lemmy, which prioritize serving users over investors, I believe Lemmy has significant potential, and that's why I am here. However, it is clear that its growth is nearing a plateau in its current form. Despite the surge in users following Reddit's API changes, Lemmy continues to primarily attract tech-savvy individuals, politically left-aligned users, and those accustomed to old Reddit. For Lemmy to reach the broader average general audience, meaningful changes are necessary.

The rise of Bluesky demonstrates the importance of ease of use and a user-friendly design. Its polished and familiar interface is a key reason for its growth and appeal as an alternative to platforms like X/Twitter. This same ease of use is what Mastodon lacked, leading to its initial hype fading quickly. The average user is unlikely to adapt to something that feels complicated or unfamiliar, and this challenge also applies to Lemmy.

As someone who started as an average Reddit user and became more tech-savvy over time, I can confidently say that first impressions matter. When users first visit lemmy.world, the default UI is often enough to discourage them from staying. Most will not explore the homepage sidebar to explore, figure out and switch to one of the alternative UIs available, which is unfortunate because a better UI could make a huge difference.

This is why I propose that large servers like lemmy.world adopt Photon UI as the default web interface. Photon is currently the best and most mature alternative UI, offering a visually appealing, modular design that feels familiar to users of new Reddit. It makes excellent use of screen space and provides customization options like compact and cozy views. Unlike some other alternative UIs, Photon is actively maintained and ready for widespread use, although in no way is it perfect, this can also help bring in more contributors to the project development.

While it is important to continue offering other UIs as options, I believe adopting Photon as the default UI could make Lemmy far more appealing to the average Reddit user. First impressions are crucial, and the current default UI has turned off many potential users. If we want Lemmy to succeed as a true Reddit alternative, we need to prioritize user experience and accessibility. Thankfully today, Lemmy still continues to be THE biggest Reddit alternative, while our userbase is still considerably smaller than Reddit, it's the biggest of any alternatives, and Lemmy continues to somewhat be in the spotlight for those seeking alternatives, we can't let growth stagnate, it's high time we make the platform more welcoming and appealing for the average joe.

EDIT: The image I attached is from photon.lemmy.world, which I just realized is using the outdated version of Photon, I have updated the image to the updated current photon version from phtn.app. There are a lot of improvements made.

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[–] thebardingreen@lemmy.starlightkel.xyz 108 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (5 children)

I love the Lemmy UI.

But I'm a gen Xer.

There's some great analysis floating around of how different generations actually interpret UIs (and make decisions about how or whether to engage with them) very differently. So there is no "one size fits all" that will make everybody happy. Change the Lemmy UI to something like Photon and I'd be like... "this is dumb." Making a bunch of very different options is a lot of work. If you want to do it... no one is stopping you. The Lemmy project is opensource and you could go start contributing and making pull requests today. You could go run your own instance and make it look like whatever you want and get the average redditors to join that. I run my own instance. We have a whole two users. It works exactly the way I want it to and federates with exactly who I want it to.

Frankly, I'm not sure Lemmy needs to go out of it's way to appeal to the average redditor in order to have a thriving, healthy community. Sure, there are some things I miss about having a giant user base to engage with, but honestly, I'll trade them for the MUCH MUCH lower toxicity. I don't know that "growing Lemmy" should be our focus. It's not like we're getting paid.

[–] 30p87@feddit.org 32 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

I love the Lemmy UI, and am a Gen Z. There's nothing worse than a UI that's slow, takes more time than necessary to load and is overloaded. I would much rather have bare HTTP forms or just make curl calls than using (new) reddit or Photon.

[–] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 14 points 2 weeks ago

Millenial here, Fuck Brutalist Modern and Responsive Web Design! If they ever dumb down the interface: I'm out of here.

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[–] fool@programming.dev 14 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

This is a good take.

Speaking from the same neutral pragmatism, it makes sense to let the default Lemmy web UI be a lightweight, actually-mobile-friendly derivative of old.reddit, rather than a more committed default like Alexandrite or Photon.

Keeping things similar is a good jumping-off point, and if we do want to make some large change, different generations and cultures have heavily varying default preferences. Wouldn't it be wiser to pick a common ground, something these differing peoples have grown used to, as opposed to some new style A or B or C likes?

(Fun fact: if you think that ppl sticking to old designs is silly, Panasonic has a whole $$ niche in Japan selling modern-internal, vintage-external laptops with DVD drives and old-style keyboards. https://old.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/v0t06p literally has both a VGA and a thunderbolt lol)

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[–] rickyrigatoni@lemm.ee 69 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

You really trying to convince us with a screenshot of the ugliest ui i ever seen huh

[–] imPastaSyndrome@lemm.ee 52 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

Yeah I used old Reddit. I don't want something that looks like new Reddit

[–] SkyNTP@lemmy.ml 24 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

You both aren't wrong... But this isn't about you.

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[–] Xylight@lemm.ee 68 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (19 children)

Hi everyone, I'm the dev. Reading all these comments really hurts when it's something you've poured your heart and soul into for over a year.

There's reasons I do everything I do in this UI, and my primary goal is to make Lemmy accessible for everyone.

This is the "cozy" view as well, but there's a "compact" view for people like me who enjoy more information density. Again, my end goal is to make Lemmy accessible. I don't do this for the sidebars for convoluted reasons I won't get into.

I'm not the one trying to advertise it, and I've never really tried to because of the fear of disapproval. I think I should advertise it myself now because then I can showcase the best parts and not get misunderstood. This screenshot uses the "list" view, imo the worst one, with some cursed chrome scrollbars.

Now that I see that the majority of users believe this sucks, I'm not sure if my mission is worth it or if I'm even doing it right.

I'm probably being too sensitive to criticism which I should expect from any project. But this project is the only one I used to feel proud of, then people chiming in claiming it's the ugliest thing they've seen. I don't know im blind to design which is the only thing I considered myself "good" at in terms of web dev.

[–] Sentau@discuss.tchncs.de 32 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Dude UI (and anything to do with looks) is always a subjective thing. Some people will like it and some people will hate it. I know every dev wants their UI to be loved by everyone but that's a fools errand as there are always people with opposing opinions. What matters is that ~~that~~ you like what you have created. Also know that there are people like me and many others who use photon daily and love the design. Don't let subjective opinions get you down.

[–] thatsnothowyoudoit@lemmy.ca 17 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Never used your project but don’t let this thread get you down.

Clearly OP loves it - don’t let those who don’t know it or don’t like it be the voices that ring loudest in your ears even if they hurt the most.

I worked professionally in open source at a company with lots of funding. The tools I worked on were used by millions and millions.

Every negative comment hurt so much. Every angry user I wanted to talk to. Most of them wanted to TALK AT me. It all hurt. And I was being paid. The engineers on my teams were burnt by the community time and time again.

If you love what you’re doing and you have a growing or happy audience - stay the course. Listen to criticism, decide if you agree (and maybe take some time when it hurts because the criticism might be valid), make a decision and move on.

Also, and this is going to be tough, maybe think about expanding or modifying what you mean when you say making Lemmy accessible for everyone.

Do you mean making a UI that will become the majority default or making a UI that brings some features (or perspective) for users who see value in those features? Trying to make something for everyone in a pond as small as the fediverse, where there are already a plethora of options is a big lift.

Above all, do you. And that includes this comment which I encourage you to promptly ignore. ;)

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[–] Blaze@feddit.org 16 points 2 weeks ago

Hello @Xylight@lemm.ee ,

First of all, really sorry that you took it that way. A few comments were indeed harsh, and I guess people were just focused on the interface and forgot that there's actually someone behind it.

I personally value Photon a lot, it definitely helps a lot of people who prefer this type of interfaces.

I think I should advertise it myself now because then I can showcase the best parts and not get misunderstood.

I think you don't even need to advertise it that much. We have Photon as an alternative frontend on one of the instances I follow, and people regularly bug the admin to update it because they like it!

The negativity this post received is probably because interfaces are a very personal matter, and trying to uniformize the default interface is always going to lead to heated discussions

Take care, you are doing an amazing job.

FYI @TheArstaInventor@lemmy.world

[–] TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works 16 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Don't take it that way. I find the default UI horrible and primarily use Lemmy on Voyager on my phone because of it. Finding this thread let me find that I can comfortably use Lemmy on desktop too! 🥳

I didn't join Lemmy for a while because I liked the "new" reddit UI better and found Lemmy too different to use easily. I tried all the different options and I didn't like them. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED ON DESKTOP!

And remember survivorship bias. The ones that can put up with the Lemmy UI, or switch to something they like better, are (for the most part) the only ones here now giving feedback.

[–] powermaker450@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I haven't met a single person that didn't like Photon. Photon is the only reason I started browsing on desktop regularly. It's lean, clean, and packed with gorgeous transitions; I've rarely ever found a project that gets form and function right.

The internet is a shitty place. I'm not surprised that on Lemmy we have shit like

  • "client with no JS when?"
  • "I don't want normies anyway"
  • "I'm too old to appreciate a modern-looking UI"
  • "eww I don't like this thing that carries subjective opinions, let's never let anyone use this."

The troll energy is strong, but it doesn't change that this is a great project. Alternative UI's are what make Lemmy unique, and you're doing your part. That's appreciated.

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[–] superkret@feddit.org 49 points 2 weeks ago (8 children)

it is clear that its growth is nearing a plateau in its current form.

Good! Lemmy doesn't need to become big, especially since the less techy masses will likely put loads of load on privately hosted instances without bothering to donate.
The growth could actually kill Lemmy.

I believe adopting Photon as the default UI could make Lemmy far more appealing to the average Reddit user.

Please no!

[–] fxomt@lemm.ee 33 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

Eh, i agree that lemmy shouldn't grow too big (Reddit is an example of why, feels like a circlejerk of bots and reposts), but the userbase feels too small currently. On a lot of communities, The activity is 1-2 posts a week, which makes it feel quite dead. And I especially miss the niche communities that you could join on reddit, for small games or obscure topics.

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[–] Blaze@feddit.org 18 points 2 weeks ago

We're at 44k monthly active users https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/dailystats

100k or 200k wouldn't kill the platform

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 10 points 2 weeks ago

I mean, yes. And I also like the oldschool interface, it does have its iffy corners but the overall layout and UX is great.

That said, there's a difference between "avoid (success at all costs)" and "(avoid success) at all cost". We should be making lemmy better for the purpose of making lemmy better, we shouldn't be changing it just to please random people so they come over.

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[–] teft@lemmy.world 43 points 2 weeks ago

Nah, the current UI is fine. We don’t need fancy shit on a link aggregator. Reddit went to shit after “updating” the UI.

Your opinions of “good” or “best” aren’t the same for everyone.

[–] fxomt@lemm.ee 39 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

As much as i love photon, i don't think it should be the default. The default lemmy ui is pretty slick and lightweight, even if it is kind of bad. Photon can be sluggish, and overwhelming for some.

I think they should just improve the default UI (which they are currently), and leave it for the user to decide.

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[–] jagged_circle@feddit.nl 31 points 2 weeks ago (13 children)

Lol no. We need a UI that doesn't require JavaScript.

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[–] DarkThoughts@fedia.io 29 points 2 weeks ago

I don't think Reddit's redesign is a good thing to aim for. Personally I really like mbin's interface in compact mode.

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 28 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (5 children)

Different OG ex-redditor here. I think Lemmy's UI is vastly superior. But full disclosure, I used old reddit.

How is it clear that Lemmy's growth is nearing a plateau? And why does Lemmy need broader growth? That seems like a solution in search of a problem. A major advantage of not being a corporate social media property is not having to think like one.

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[–] JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee 24 points 2 weeks ago (7 children)

I just use the Voyager app, which has a great UI, with no need to visit the website at all.

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[–] JigglySackles@lemmy.world 22 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Eww. I don't like that screenshot at all. I vastly prefer the more info dense version I use that looks like classic reddit.

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[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 21 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

That UI is dogshit. Lemmy is a link aggregator and you're saying it should show 2 links on the screen at a time? New Reddit is shit for the same reason.

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[–] squirrel@discuss.tchncs.de 21 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I know I'm tech-savvy, but I actually enjoy the fact that Lemmy (and the Fediverse) doesn't hand everything to me easily on a plate. The hunt for new interesting communities, my long well curated block list, setting up Lemmy apps exactly to my preferences is part of the fun.

If someone handed me a fully configured Voyager app on day one, I wouldn't have had all the exciting experiences trying a bunch of apps to find the best one for me, learning how to block instances and communities, learning how to correctly link to communities and users, finding new ways to discover communities.

All this stuff is part of why I come back here everyday. A ready out-of-the-box solution is kinda boring.

[–] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 12 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

A lot of the comments including yours sound gatekeep-y to me but I have to say I kind of feel the same way.

Everyone who has come here and stuck around found their way through the jank and is joining an exclusive club of high-quality discussion. Like Linux, once you can get past the basics, you can customize your experience nearly limitlessly, but it takes effort, trial and error to get to something you like.

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[–] asudox@discuss.tchncs.de 19 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

Lemmy will be getting a new, more modern UI sometime soon.

It is being actively developed and you can even try it out today: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui-leptos

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[–] Oka@sopuli.xyz 19 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Lemmy isn't a UI, it's just data. Each app that connects to lemmy (not instances in the fediverse, but apps that let you sign into a lemmy account) has their own interface. A person can (and probably has) made an app with a modern interface for lemmy.

We are not confined to a specific app or interface, anyone can interface with Lemmy and present the data in their own way.

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[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 18 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Lemmy continues to primarily attract tech-savvy individuals, politically left-aligned users

You say that like it's bad 😊

Your points are valid, but you do run on the assumption that growth is good, which is not an universal truth IMO.

[–] Blaze@feddit.org 13 points 2 weeks ago (13 children)

As someone trying to keep the non-tech communities active, having a few active posters would definitely be an improvement

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[–] FrostyTrichs@walledgarden.xyz 15 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

For those who may not be aware there are alternative front ends available for Lemmy.

MLMYM is like old reddit. You can see what it looks like here:

mlmym.walledgarden.xyz

Voyager is multi platform interface that also offers a Lemmy frontend. Our implementation is here:

voyager.walledgarden.xyz

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[–] sprack@lemmy.world 15 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

That’s too much padding. It needs to be more like Hacker News.

[–] Blaze@feddit.org 14 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)
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[–] Cephalotrocity@biglemmowski.win 15 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (8 children)

The Lemmy UI is easy enough to use IMO. Where the problems show up are:

  • Unreliable linking to other comments and posts. It is annoying to no end to receive a link to someone's comment and be unceremoniously ripped out of your home server and put onto the federated one no longer logged in etc... This behaviour should somehow be prevented

  • a quick reference to the text commands easily found somewhere (ie: sidebar)

  • I'd prefer more theme and colour options

  • Fix the text interface so it respects carriage return entries properly. If I want to start a new line directly under the current one (edit: AFI knew after 4+ months of use) there is

no way

to do

it.

Make it so a single carriage return is acknowledged and correctly starts a new line right underneath, or automatically forces a blank line between. This needing double entry is unintuitive and wrecks many new user's first hundred post's appearance.

Finally, the premise: Lemmy.world should be more welcoming is itself undesirable. That instance is already taking up an inordinate number of users so IMO every other instance (except the awful ones, we all know who they are) should be using a better UI, not L.W

[–] Blaze@feddit.org 15 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

no way

to do

it.

your can use
two space at the end of the line
to achieve this

For the links, it's being worked on, should be part of 0.20: https://lemmy.ml/post/23245384

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[–] lambalicious@lemmy.sdf.org 15 points 2 weeks ago

While I do favour that UI improvements are needed - in particular for guest views and community sidebars, I'd say defo chasing the "big social" trends and UIs is not the way to go. Heck, I left Reddit partly because of the new UI (I know about old.reddit, it's just there's no promise of any kind to maintain it).

[–] FeelzGoodMan420@eviltoast.org 14 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

Nah that looks like convoluted shit. Simple is better. Like old Reddit. Your screenshot looks like new Reddit dogshit.

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[–] MudMan@fedia.io 13 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

I'm on Fedia. It's pretty solid, UI-wise. I actually find it more usable than Reddit and its terrible way of trimming down threads by default.

What I've seen of Lemmy does seem a bit messier to read, though.

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[–] kinther@lemmy.world 13 points 2 weeks ago

I personally really dislike new reddit and the Photon theme. I'd say no to any change to my main instance.

[–] anzo@programming.dev 12 points 2 weeks ago

I'm fine with having less normies and an non-algorithmichal echo chamber of fellow leftists and tech savvy persons. These are my homies.

[–] johntash@eviltoast.org 12 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I might have missed it, but why is it clear that lemmy is reaching a plateau of users?

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[–] 1985MustangCobra@lemmy.ca 12 points 2 weeks ago

I don't see any issue with the current UI.

[–] morrowind@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 weeks ago

I think we need to actually do some new user testing, instead of endless discussion with nothing to back it up.

[–] Shatur@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 weeks ago (10 children)

The rise of Bluesky demonstrates the importance of ease of use and a user-friendly design. Its polished and familiar interface is a key reason for its growth and appeal as an alternative to platforms like X/Twitter.

I think many people use Bluesky instead of Mastodon because of its UX, not its UI. Both looks great (I think Mastodon even nicer!).

I personally use Mastodon, but I've seen people complain about their experience with it.

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[–] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee 11 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I basically only use mobile apps, so I don't even remember what the desktop UI looks like. But if you say so!

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[–] astro_ray@piefed.social 10 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

Lemdro.id uses Photon as it's default UI, but it's incredibly slow and sometimes it doesn't even load properly. As much as I love the polish, I wouldn't recommend it as default UI. Using photon as an alternative UI is much better option.

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