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[-] sudoer777@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

My $7000/mo medication has a bunch of "cost relief" programs so they can pretend that they give a shit about affordability, then when you actually try to use them they make you do like 20 phone calls over the span of several months until they finally let you enroll and when you do it only lasts for a short amount of time before they kick you off and you have to start the process all over again. I've had to miss multiple doses of the medication which is dangerous for my physical health because I don't have the money to pay for it and this process takes so fucking long.

Recently, they signed me up for some super shady thing where I pay for the medication upfront and then they pay me back after showing me the receipt. What they didn't tell me is that it has a limit for how much it will pay for, so I pay for the medication, and what a surprise, they rejected my claim and now I lost $5000 to the medication, which could have paid for a car or a semester of community college. Our healthcare system does a great job at making dying sound like a decent alternative to healthcare.

[-] Death@lemmy.world 18 points 10 hours ago

And when the patient turned out to be fine after the scan, the insurance company will try to blame that the doctors are lying so that the insurance company has to pay the hospital more It's like they thought that the doctors must be able to see through the patients' body as if they forgot that the reason for these equipments to exist in the first place is that because the doctors can't really be 100% sure about what's actual situation inside human body

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 8 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago)

There's two sides to this coin. On the one end, you have insurance companies refusing to pay for anything because the modern industry is just six scams in a trench coat.

But on the other, you have doctor's offices where the physician literally leases an MRI machine to the tune of several million dollars and then has to run a certain number of patients through the scanner every year or lose money. That's because the MRI patent is held by GE and they can charge 10-100x markups on hardware that is fundamental to modern medicine.

Its the same with diabetes treatments. Insurance companies will try and refuse service or kick people off their policies if they are at risk. But then pharmacy companies will sell $3 of insulin for $75, then kickback a chunk of the balance to judicial/congressional bribes in order to guarantee the cash flow.

At some level, the only insurance companies that can survive in such a market are the ones that say "No!" to everything. The even-remotely-ethical firms just get fleeced by the for-profit industry until they get bought out or go bankrupt. That, or you're Medicare/Medicaid and you have an infinite wallet backstopped by the US Treasury. You don't care if you're paying multiples of whatever any other clinic anywhere else in the world would charge on an enormous population of poor and elderly patients, because you have an unlimited money cannon to mow it all down with.

[-] piecat@lemmy.world 5 points 6 hours ago

Very uninformed take, its almost laughable.

GE isn't the only one who makes MRIs. The other big players are Siemens, Philips, United, and to some extent Canon, Fujifoto, and Hitachi.

No, that's really how much it costs. The margin on MRI machines is terrible. I'd like to see you do it cheaper... "Just" build then supercool magnet for superconduction for 3T of homogenius magnetic field, build coils that handle KW of RF/gradients that can fit a human comfortably without artifacts, build the high power and precision circuitry to transmit and receive said RF, then control that equipment accurately and safely.

Super easy, off-the-shelf stuff.

Oh, and you can't use any ferrous parts, nor can your power supplies generate any noise.

That's like, senior design level stuff amirite

[-] piecat@lemmy.world 2 points 6 hours ago

The other big factor in cost is supply chain. Everything has to be tracable. So the supply chains have to do a lot of paperwork, inspection audits, since a defective part can kill someone.

[-] PresidentCamacho@lemm.ee 5 points 7 hours ago

Six scams in a trench coat

Fucking poetry lol. I'm gonna use this.

[-] bitwaba@lemmy.world 2 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago)

*cough* single payer fixes all this *cough*

Sorry, cough has been acting up. I should go see a doctor with a MRI about that...

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 4 points 9 hours ago

cough single payer fixes all this cough

I'd go one further and say a National Health System fixes all this. Rather than paying a guy to pay a guy, you just have publicly financed clinics and hospitals. This is the traditional way of building up medical infrastructure, btw. City hospitals used to be the norm. We only entered the era of corporate consolidation when we sold off our public infrastructure for a song during the neoliberal turn of the 70s and 80s.

[-] intensely_human@lemm.ee 0 points 8 hours ago

Shouldn’t that patent have expired by now?

This kind of thing is why it bothers me when people complain about “free market medicine”.

A market where only one entity is allowed to build MRI machines, or license the tech to others to build, is not a free market. That’s a government-enforced monopoly.

Even the fact that a patient can’t just go get their own MRI at Scans-R-Us, but needs to get a doctor’s referral first, is a huge departure from what an actually free market for medicine would look like.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 1 points 6 hours ago

Shouldn’t that patent have expired by now?

It's an evolving technology. We get new patents with every iteration.

A market where only one entity is allowed to build MRI machines, or license the tech to others to build, is not a free market.

If you spend a few years in Business School getting your MBA, you get an earful about how and why patent law exists. The core argument is that private investment is predicated on returns and we can't have nice things unless we have men with guns come for the property and freedom of anyone who "steals an idea".

But more practically, this shit is just a racket. Lots of lobbyist money changes hands to make sure the decks at the casino are properly stacked. Medical treatment is just another opportunity to apply leverage through debt to control other people.

[-] Snowclone@lemmy.world 5 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

IThey can't even be sure after the MRI. Which again, proves your point. It took one MRI battery and one alert and skilled MRI tech to catch my brain cyst, THEN another whole set, I straight up spend a whole 8hr shift in an MRI machine, Then a TEAM of neurologists studied my custom hand made brain for MONTHS. THEN they had a really good set of educated guesses. Then they did the surgery, and only after they opened up my brain case did the actually see what in the hell was going on. Even after all that, my neurologists was like ''This is what we think is happening'', I asked what it would take to really know factually, he said an autopsy. He didn't recommend it. The point is, Doctors save lives with these scans, and nothing is certain. That's not a barrier to treatment, but no scans Is a barrier to treatment.

[-] intensely_human@lemm.ee -1 points 8 hours ago

This is why we need transporter tech from star trek.

Beam yourself into the copy buffer, kill the copy, and do an autopsy.

[-] Snowclone@lemmy.world 5 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

Sure we could save lives by listening to doctors! But who will save our dollars, huh? The REAL value!

[-] Lightrider@sh.itjust.works 6 points 16 hours ago
[-] intensely_human@lemm.ee -3 points 8 hours ago

Capitalism is based on free markets.

Deviations from free market status in this scenario include:

  • The MRI machine is extremely expensive because it’s from a government-enforced patent monopoly
  • The insurance is expensive because it’s mandated by government
  • The MRI requires a doctor’s prescription because that’s the law

If we had capitalism in medicine, OP would be paying $150 out of pocket to buy an MRI scan from a private company, and that would be that.

[-] shield_gengar@sh.itjust.works 2 points 8 hours ago

Where did you pull $150 from?

[-] secretfoxtail@lemmy.ca 15 points 21 hours ago

tl;dr: It doesn't.

[-] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 63 points 1 day ago

So here is a question:

A medical professional examined the person IN PERSON and has a requirement.

In comes the insurance to tell you your doctor is wrong and that you're perfectly fine, your doctor is basically lying to you.

Question: how the fuck did any of this ever become legal?

[-] intensely_human@lemm.ee -5 points 8 hours ago

It became legal when we decided medicine was too important to be handled by a free market, and we created a labyrinth of laws governing how medicine must be administered.

[-] rhandyrhoads@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago

Medicine in the US is the closest we have to a free market. (Newly developed pharmaceuticals being a bit of exception due to the nature of our patent system) In a free market you work on principles of supply and demand. An important concept here is that of inelastic demand. For certain goods, up to a certain point demand will remain constant regardless of price as they are essential to life or addictive. Think gasoline, water, cigarettes, etc...

With medicine people will generally spend whatever it takes often even going into debt if necessary because they value continuing to live very highly. As a result, hospitals are able to charge as much as they think people are willing to pay before they decide that dying is a better financial decision.

You could argue that in a free market, hospitals which charge less will see more business pushing costs down. For certain areas like elective plastic surgery the whole free market model actually works out fairly well since people have the option to shop around. However, let's say you get in a life threatening car crash. In that moment you don't have the time to shop around for the cheapest ambulance provider and run a cost benefit analysis on which one has the closest ambulance. After that you can't shop around local hospitals to see which can offer the cheapest solution for your procedure because first off you don't know exactly what's wrong until you get to the hospital. Second, you're currently suffering from serious injuries and need to get to the closest hospital. This is why just about the entire developed world apart from the US has nationalised healthcare. Is it completely free of issues? No. Are there some markets where private healthcare can offer better service? Yes. However, you don't have people going into financial ruin because they needed emergency medical care.

[-] woodenskewer@lemmy.world 44 points 1 day ago

Question: how the fuck did any of this ever become legal?

I would guess lobbying.

[-] deaf_fish@lemm.ee 12 points 1 day ago

Politics are dumb but very important.

[-] overcast5348@lemmy.world 14 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

You do need some checks and balances because what's to stop a hospital from profiting off the insurance companies by asking for a CT scan/whatever of every single patient just because they can.

I suppose we could have the government run the hospitals too. But noooooo, that's never going to work out because communism or something.

Maybe we should try effective altruism and accelerationism instead? Let's just hand over all our money to a few tech bros and then we can go beg them to pay for the scans. And if they don't pay for it, surely someone will come up with a cheaper technology to do the same. Yes, that'll definitely work.

[-] intensely_human@lemm.ee -2 points 8 hours ago

what's to stop a hospital from profiting off the insurance companies by asking for a CT scan/whatever of every single patient just because they can

The patient saying no. Also a system where the patient isn’t forced to use insurance.

We could have markets run the hospitals but heaven forbid people would consent to their economic interactions.

[-] overcast5348@lemmy.world 2 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

We could have markets run the hospitals but heaven forbid people would consent to their economic interactions.

"Hello! My mother is clutching her chest. She may be having a heart attack. Could you please email me an estimate for the treatment? I'm talking to two other car dealers, and I've read all the posts about the 4 square method online, I'm on to your tricks."

[-] echodot@feddit.uk 10 points 1 day ago

You could just get rid of the for-profit medical industry entirely and then there would be no incentive to over treat patients.

[-] overcast5348@lemmy.world 1 points 6 hours ago

Yes. Hence the rest of my comment. I should've probably put a "/s" at the end. :)

[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 5 points 22 hours ago

Yes, it's clear why it's legal and necessary to some extent. In a for-profit system, a doctor's office or hospital, every procedure or test the doctor can order (and have the patient pay for) will generate profit. Doctors have an incentive to order as many tests as possible. I assume that most doctors are somewhat honorable and won't abuse this too much, but they'll probably still err on the side of ordering as many tests as possible not necessarily because of profits, but because more tests gives them more information.

Meanwhile, in a for-profit system, an insurance company will generate the most profit by agreeing to as few tests and procedures as possible. So, they will have an adversarial relationship with doctors and will try to arrange as few tests and procedures as possible. My guess is that the average insurance company is less ethical than the average doctor, so they're probably more likely to refuse to allow tests that are actually medically necessary.

In a sane system, there would be a neutral referee, the government, who would resolve disputes and severely punish any actor in the system that was behaving badly. But, AFAIK that only rarely happens in the US, where the idea is that the "invisible hand of the free market" will magically make it all work.

[-] intensely_human@lemm.ee -2 points 8 hours ago

Doctors have an incentive to order as many tests as possible

This would conceivably be true for car repair as well. A mechanic is incentivized to order as many repairs as possible for a car.

So why don’t they?

The answer is many-faceted, but the main ones are (a) professional ethics, (b) reputation, and (c) second opinions which kinda feed into b.

Any provider whether doctor/mechanic/wedding photographer/whatever is also incentivized to serve their customers well by selling them only things that truly benefit them.

We don’t need insurance companies in all those other industries to prevent providers from using an infinite-billing hack to generate infinite money.

[-] alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 hours ago

Great example, mechanics are notorious for ripping people off.

[-] JovialMicrobial@lemm.ee 10 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago)

Doctors do not directly profit from ordering tests. They get paid whether they order a test or not.

You want to know who profits from over testing? Quest Diagnostics.

https://bergermontague.com/quest-diagnostics-pay-1-79-million-settle-false-claims

These guys literally defrauded the government, but everyone points their fingers at poor people, doctors, liberals, ethnic minorities, lgtbq people, ect. The problem is corrupt businesses and their CEO's hoovering up as much money as they can so they can shove it up their ass.

[-] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 42 points 1 day ago

Prior authorization should 100% be outlawed. It's either insurance adjusters practicing medicine without a license, or insurance doctors making diagnoses without examining a patient, both of which are unethical or illegal.

Though I think the real solution is a system where every time a prior authorization denial is overruled by the DOO or a court, the insurance company has to pay punitive damages of at least $200,000 to the patient.

[-] TommySalami@lemmy.world 131 points 1 day ago

I work for a neurologist practice, and the amount I have to argue with insurance (and inevitably have to get the neurologist on the phone to directly request something for many) is insane. A good chunk of my job isn't providing care, but arguing with insurance that the care is necessary. These companies are actively delaying patient care, and try to blame the physician whenever possible.

Wildly infuriating, especially when the denials are worded along the lines of "we reviewed this, and don't consider it medically necessary". Motherfucker, a doctor said it was necessary and listed the clinical reasons why this test or procedure would be beneficial. Nothing has radicalized me for universal healthcare more than working in healthcare.

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[-] sevan@lemmy.ca 49 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Also, there's this common "feature":

Dr: "You need this procedure."

Me: "How much will it cost me?"

Office Manager: "I won't know until I bill your insurance and find out if it is covered."

Me: "What is the cash price I would pay you if it isn't covered by insurance."

Office Manager: "I have no idea."

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[-] Nougat@fedia.io 295 points 1 day ago

Universal health care? I don't want government making my health care decisions! We have for-profit companies for that.

[-] The_Picard_Maneuver@lemmy.world 192 points 1 day ago

Death panels?

Believe it or not, that's also Frank.

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[-] WoahWoah@lemmy.world 42 points 1 day ago

Last time my doctor had to bill my insurance he said he would just run it immediately, because apparently "routine denial" is a thing where they just automatically deny it because if you really need it the doctor will then have his office try again with more justifications. He hated this a lot, because it basically meant he had to just assume first denial for no real reason and then his staff had to take the time to almost always go back and resubmit. He said sometimes he would submit it with the info, it would be denied, and then he would resubmit it two more times and suddenly it would be approved.

Like seriously, what the fuck. But only does that hold up necessary care, it also makes doctors do more bureaucratic work and hire more staff, which, of course, makes medicine more expensive. Brilliant.

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[-] WoahWoah@lemmy.world 29 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

American health insurance in a nutshell: https://youtu.be/llx-SaGq4Fs?si=eDIny0fqcGYFkB2a

And before non-Americans ask, yes, that's actually how it is. The humor in this video isn't from exaggeration, the comedy derives from the unexpectedly clear way the absurdity of the system is explained.

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[-] solsangraal@lemmy.zip 216 points 1 day ago

i have a friend who's a transplant patient and has been taking the same meds for over 10 years post transplant-- every year it's a furious battle with insurance who, every year, decides the meds are no longer "medically necessary" and drops coverage for it. fucking helloooo these are anti-rejection pills, the textbook definition of "medically necessary."

it's not that insurance companies are stupid, it's that they're saving money on people dying when those people don't get what they needed to live.

insurance is the biggest fucking scam of all time

[-] TheFrirish@jlai.lu 0 points 7 hours ago

I don't get it why americans still put up with this if I suffered from that in France I would just leave my country.

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[-] slumlordthanatos@lemmy.world 185 points 1 day ago

Frank didn't even look at it. He just fed your claim into their computer and it spat out a rejection.

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[-] Fuzzy_Red_Panda@lemm.ee 43 points 1 day ago

The cruelty of the US American for-profit health system is what should be uniting all US Americans in protest, riot, and violent overthrow of the current system.

[-] Itdidnttrickledown@lemmy.world 24 points 1 day ago

They hire doctors who can't handle being practicing doctors to prop up their delusions. I've only had one on the line in a dispute and he acted quite offended when I asked for his license to prove he was a real doctor. Turns out he was barely a doctor at all. He decided instead of practicing medicine and killing people he would work for a insurance company and kill them that way.

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this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2024
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