this post was submitted on 15 Feb 2024
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That seems like a silly worry to me. I would be more concerned about what my own country or a corporation or the USA could do to me than China. Think about it. The USA could charge me with something like copyright violation and boom I get arrested just like that. China accuses me of a crime and the government won't do shit.
While I share your concerns about local spying, giving a foreign entity a real time feed of every street, every passing licenseplate (via on board cameras) etc. seems like a bad idea. You should absolutely be vigilant against your own government as well. But China has shown many times in the past to use whatever means available to gather data for example on dissidents living abroad. That's not a silly worry, it's a daily occurrence.
Did you mean say "foreign entity" or "China". Because we already give that information to a foreign entity, multiple foreign agencies in fact.
It's a silly worry for me because I am not a chinese dissident living abroad.
Well that's up to you. I'm no dissident either but I have family in Taiwan so you'll understand if I take it more personally. China can easily decide you (or your neighbors) need spying on for reasons unknown to you.
Sure I guess. Is China arresting or kidnapping people in Taiwan or something?
I am 100% convinced they are spying on as many people as possible but I am also 100% convinced that the number of people they spy on is much less than the number of people the USA is spying on. I am 100% convinced that the USA is spying on me, is recording this conversation, records my phone calls, and has a history of every web site I visited and what I did at those web sites and every call I made and every text I sent. I don't think the Chinese intelligence agencies have the same capability or reach that the US intelligence agencies have. Not even close.
I haven't heard of people being abducted from Taiwan, but friends were detained while transferring flights in Hong Kong over some China-critical social media posts.
Fair but while America is far from squeaky clean, I've never avoided traveling via one of their airports for fear of something I said about their president on social media. And if they did I wouldn't, except in extreme cases, disappear from the face of the earth with my family having no idea what happened to me. China does these things routinely. Even to very prominent members of their own society.
Look if you say "I'm not involved, it's not my problem" that's fair enough. But to say there's no difference between the US (which I fully acknowledge does lots of bad things) and China is missing the plot a bit.
This is exactly the point. Both are bad, but one plays by no rules whatsoever, while the other at least pays lip service to them.
In Taiwan itself? No. When they transit through China, or friendly countries? Yes, emphatically.
You would be wrong about most of this. The Chinese government has one of the most sophisticated spying networks in the world. Remember this: all large Chinese companies have CCP officers with complete access to all information.
I feel like you haven't been to the US. Companies collect personal info, yes, but the US government isn't out there wiretapping the entire world. Real life isn't like the CIA movies, mate.
Well I am neither Taiwanese nor am I traveling through China so....
I don't think so. The exploits of the NSA have been widely reported. Nowhere close to the USA or even Israel.
All US companies are subject to US laws which allow for full and free access to all information from those companies. Aside from that the NSA has code in all the routers, all the sim cards, all the hard drive firmware etc. Again all this has been widely published.
I have actually but I don't see why that's relevant. You really think people gain knowledge once they step off the airplane into the USA?
It sounds like you are not very aware of what's been happening.
So you only care about yourself?
Yes, you are. Both of those countries have large intelligence programs, yes. So does the CCP. And, as I mentioned elsewhere, they don't have to even pretend to follow the law. China is a massive surveillance state.
But sure mate, China fine, US big bad scary. Got it.
The CCP has no laws it needs to follow. The US government does. It needs reasons to get information on you, and the information it can get is limited. And no, the NSA, doesn't. Some systems allows access, but not "all routers etc". That's conspiracy theory territory I'm afraid.
I am, I'm just not a paranoid conspiracy nut.
I care mostly about myself. Just like you care mostly about yourself. You certainly don't use the same criteria against any other country.
USA is much worse, much more pervasive, much more massive.
China bad, USA is worse.
Same goes for the USA.
Nope. It gathers mass information all the time. This conversation is being recorded by the USA because all traffic on the internet is being recorded by them. They didn't need to ask anybody.
You are more paranoid than me but also racist from the looks of it.
I have empathy for many people. I care about all lives. I never once said I hold this view exclusively about China. We were talking about Chinese cars, so I said I don't trust them.
Disagree. You should spend time in Asia and talk to the people there, follow the news, etc. You might learn something.
Ok, so how does that invalidate me not wanting a Chinese car or a Chinese cellphone exactly? Since that's how this started...
No, this is wrong. The government can do a lot, yes, but it is not a dictatorship.
It really isn't, but whatever.
How, exactly, am I racist?
Do you? Even about Palestinians and Yemeni and Saudi Arabians?
Disagree all you want. The fact that NSA has software in all routers and hard drive firmware and sim cards has been widely reported.
Yes, of course. Why do you keep bringing them up? What do they have to do with Chinese cars? I genuinely don't understand why you are on about this.
No, it is reported they put backdoors in US-made routers. Your claims of "all" are nonsense.
But even if we agree on this fact, I am less concerned about it. Why? Because I can badmouth the US government and have no fear of being detained if I travel there. The same cannot be said about China, as another poster has already pointed out.
I'm sure they won't do shit, but why would I let a foreign entity that EMPHATICALLY only cares about itself access to my information when I don't have to?
Corporations spy on us too, and this is motivated by profit. The Chinese government is much more insidious. If I were a Chinese expat, for example, I should genuinely be concerned about them finding information on me and arresting me when I visit there.
You are doing that now though.
I am not a chinese expat though. I have literally zero concern that China is going to get me or do anything to me let alone care about me.
OTOH I am very afraid to attend a protest or even accidentally cross the street during a protest because I know I will go on some list and my face will be recorded by our own government.
I trust the NZ government a lot more than the CCP, and you should too.
Neither am I, but I can recognize the terrible actions taken by that government, and not want to support it in any way.
Why? Are you seriously trying to compare the New Zealand, or any western government, to the CCP? If you are, then I seriously doubt you understand quite how bad the CCP is.
Depends on the topic. I trust NZ government more than the CCP in most things but I fear the NZ government more than I fear the CCP because the NZ government exercises more power over me than the CCP does.
BTW why do you keep ignoring the other evil empire in the picture? I trust the US government less than I trust both the NZ government and the CCP.
Cough Israel, cough Saudi Arabia.
Because I don't want to be on the list of known dissidents the government keeps.
Yes.
As bad as they are they can not exert any power over me. OTOH both the NZ government and the US government can exert tremendous amount of power over me.
This is not a contest of who is worse the USA wins that hands down. This is a contest of who can harm me personally the most and who I should be afraid of the most.
Now I know you don't fully grasp how bad the CCP is.
The US government is pretty corrupt. But it is absolutely nothing like the CCP. Does the US government disappear political opponents? Does it require all companies over a certain size to have official party officers on staff, to ensure they are 'paying their dues' and not becoming too powerful. Does it fund infrastructure projects to debt riddled countries so that they have no choice but to sell them all their mineral wealth? Does the US government actively genocide ethnic minorities? Seriously, they are both bad, but the CCP is much worse.
What?
🙄
The US has no control over you, unless you are a citizen there. What are you afraid of?
You keep moving the goalpost. CCP is bad, not as bad as the USA, not as bad Saudi Arabia, not as bad as South Korea, not as bad as Israel.
LOL. "pretty corrupt".
It kills them with drone strikes. Also tortures them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man
Yes, by helping Israel and Saudi Arabia and Yemen do it.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/dotcom-wins-settlement-from-police-over-the-2012-dawn-raid-which-saw-him-arrested/2EGYXEM64SKGMYHJPZ23QNIRO4/
I'm not moving anything. You started using whataboutism to compare China to the US. "The US is worse" and all that. While I disagree with you about this, it doesn't matter. Multiple things can be true at once. China is bad. The US is bad. Israel is bad. These are all, simultaneously, true.
Yes, pretty corrupt. They are still a government that follows laws. This is why Trump is currently facing legal problems instead of successfully overthrowing Biden in a coup. Currently, Biden cannot pass certain laws because it still requires both the Senate and the House to pass a new law.
You understand that the CCP is a dictatorship right? Single party with absolute control? These things are not the same.
Terrorists and enemy combatants, yes. Not political opponents though. Is Biden ordering his political opponents locked up and tortured? No? These things are not the same.
From your link: "By law, NSLs can request only non-content information, for example, transactional records and phone numbers dialed, but never the content of telephone calls or e-mails."
I am not arguing that the US does not do bad things, but that it is not comparable to the CCP. The US still generally tries to follow its own laws. The CCP can and does do whatever it wants.
Lol, this is a book which is widely discredited. The author is a conspiracy theorist, and little if anything of his claims have been verified. I would not use that book as your source of information.
If you do not see how these are not the same thing then we may as well move on.
So a very high profile person who flagrantly broke the law in multiple jurisdictions has led to the US asking for extradition, which is a thing many countries will do, and is still here. This is your example? Are you a high profile owner of a massive piracy platform? No?
No actual US citizens and their children. BTW all it takes for them to call somebody a terrorist is to call them a terrorist.
Apparently you haven't been keeping up with the news
That's because they already have access to the content from the NSA.
LOL it hasn't.
If you don't see how it's the same thing thing we might as well move on. There are actual genocides happening in Gaza and Yemen but hey since the US is helping with those that's OK I guess.
He only broke US laws and his house was raided.
Again though you seem to think this is perfectly fine so there is no need to go on.
I have.
They don't, at least not how you are suggesting they do.
It has.
When did I say they were ok?
Copywrite infringement is illegal in most countries, including here.
When did I say it was? I don't think he should be extradited, but I'm not worried about the Big Bad US Government coming after me.
He wasn't charged with copyright infringement.
But you are worried about the big bad Chinese government coming after you.
No, you're right, he is charged with criminal copyright infringement, money laundering, racketeering and wire fraud.
More than the US, yes. Why? Because of the reasons I've outline elsewhere: the US, as bad as it is, still has some laws and balances it must navigate. The Chinese government has none, and has actively shown to track and detain both citizens and foreigners.
I have lived and worked in China, so I am absolutely certain there is a file on me somewhere (I had a nice chat with a "totallynota" member of the CCP at my a company over drinks one night when he offered that they keep an eye on every foreigner in the country.
I also refuse to support such a regime.
He wasn't charged with anything in NZ.
Do you think if China accused you of copyright infringement NZ police would raid your house?
And you are convinced the NZ government would do the bidding of the Chinese if the Chinese government decided to come after you right?
But what he did is illegal here just as well as in the states. What is your point? Do you own a massive piracy platform? If not, it's not really comparable to you or I is it?
No, but they could potentially detain me if I travel through there if I regularly bad-mouth the regime.
I really don't get you mate. Are you saying that the US, a country that actually has laws and is not a dictatorship, is worse than an actual dictatorship with a long history of abuse.
AND EVEN IF IT WAS, why does that fucking matter? I don't have to love the US if I dislike China. I can avoid both if I want. Your whataboutism is pointless.
No, but other countries can and will. I do not have to worry about the US disappearing me if I say bad things about Biden. There is a small, but measurable, risk that this can happen if I badmouth the CCP and then travel to certain countries. Once again, asking another authority to arrest a massive international criminal is not the same as disappearing normal everday people because they said a bad thing about Winnie the Pooh.
Was he charged here?
Anybody could become a target by breaking a US law.
I am not talking about that. Would the NZ police raid your house and arrest you if China accused you of a crime? We know they would if the USA accused you of a crime.
Yes I am. Being a democracy has nothing to do with anything.
They could kill you with a drone strike.
The USA will kill you right here if they want.
LOL. You really drank a lot of right wing kool aid if you believe Kim Dotcom wa s a massive international criminal.
Sigh, look. You don't seem to understand how extradition treaties work.
It's very simple. Our two countries have a reciprocal extradition treaty. This means, if someone is a wanted criminal in our country, we can ask the US government to detain and deport this person so they can stand trial in our country. The same is true of the US. Whether or not he actually committed a crime HERE is irrelevant: He is a wanted criminal in the US, and they asked our government to detain and deport him. Note he is still in NZ.
We don't have an extradition treaty with China. We do with the US. This isn't hard to understand.
Are you suggesting that a country that has minorities in concentration camps, has waged cultural war on others, actively exploits poor nations, tracks and watches their entire population, domestically and abroad, locks up political opponents, disappears people critical to the government, detains foreign citizens and actively tries to subvert democracy in other countries is as bad as the US?
If you are you are either naive or an idiot. I can't quite figure out which.
Happens all the time does it? I must have missed all those drone strikes in NZ, the UK and the EU.
When has that ever happened here?
Man you have wildly missed the mark here. I never said I think he deserves to be a criminal, only that he is. He IS a massive international criminal because he has, no matter how dumb they are, broken many international laws.
All this is such a stupid argument anyway, because EVEN IF the US is so much worse than China, MY POINT STILL STANDS. I am allowed to not want China to track me through my phone, even if I allow the US to do it (as you claim).
I honestly have no idea what your problem is.
If the answer to 2. is no then I have more to worry about the US than China.
So what you saying is that I have nothing to worry about when it comes to China coming after me because I broke Chinese laws.
Oh that was a surprise. I was sure you were going to say "as bad as China" at the end of that.
yes it does.
They do what they call "extraordinary renditions" in those countries. The US agents break down your door, put a bag over your head and ship you off to some island to be tortured.
Hasn't happened here yet that we know of. But it has happened in many other countries.
No he is not a massive international criminal. No other nation has charges against him. But I get it you completely swallowed the right wing propaganda and think he is some sort of an international criminal mastermind who totally deserved to get raided.
You are allowed to do whatever you want no matter how racist or irrational it is. You are convinced the Chinese are going to get you, grab you and make you a prisoner or something and you believe the USA would never do anything like that to a NZ citizen despite the fact that the USA has done that and you told me we don't have an extradition treaty with China.
I mean you sound like raving paranoid maniac.
Right back at you. Why do you praise the USA so highly?
I travel to Asia fairly regularly. Am I being irrational? I never said you should stop using Chinese phones, only that I don't want to use them.
As above. I never said you had to worry, only that I don't want to. Then you came along trying to convince me that I'm wrong.
No, because the US does not do all of that.
Lol, sure mate. Ok.
You need to stop watching spy movies as if they were documentaries.
I never said I thought he deserved to be raided. I only said that, by law, the US is allowed to seek extradition to their country to stand trial. I never said I thought he should be charged with anything, or made any judgement call on the situation at all. Oh, and he was charged in Germany, so yes, he is international.
I love that you think I'm right wing.
I said none of those things, stop making shit up. I said "I don't trust the Chinese government to not spy on me so I don't use their phones". This makes no mention of the US, or any of the other shit you're on about. I can distrust more than one government. However, I have plenty of evidence, and first hand experience, of China's spying program. Much less so the US.
Sure mate. Also, "racist" lol.
When have I praised the US? Seriously, what the fuck do you think I've been saying?
Asia is a big place. Are you saying everyplace in Asia is under the control of the Chinese government or something? Are you afraid that if you travel to Japan or India or Vietnam or Thailand that Chinese agents are going to grab you?
Since you specifically said Asia and not China I am guessing you actually do think that and yes that makes you highly irrational. In fact I would say pretty fucking crazy.
But you live in NZ and you don't have to worry either.
All of that has been documented being done by the US. Honestly it looks like you only get your news from some weird facebook bubble where everybody is convinced the yellow menace is out to get them.
Wow. You really are ignorant aren't you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#:~:text=Extraordinary%20rendition%20is%20a%20euphemism,transfer%20to%20a%20third%20state.
Walks like a duck, talks like a duck and all that.
That's only because you are wilfully ignorant.
Pot, meet kettle.
I have friends and family in several asian countries and travel regularly in the region. Do not presume to know my situation.
Lol, you have no idea what you are talking about. I feel no need to defend my political stance, but needless to say you are as wrong as is possible to be.
I'm well aware of this. You paint it as something that is happened all the time, and could happen to you any moment. But in reality, this practice is greatly reduced if not stopped altogether in many jurisdictions. It also targets suspected Islamic terrorists, not political dissidents.
The same thing happens with China, just not in many western countries so you probably aren't aware of it.
Only one country is likely to do anything I'd a simply badmouth the government. Hint: it isn't the US.
You are perfectly capable of looking at my post history and seeing for yourself how wrong you are. But of course you won't, because you can't be wrong right?
Sure mate. That's it.
Why do you keep saying "asian countries". Do all asians look alike to you or something? Do you think all Asian countries are China or something?
no you aren't. You denied it happened FFS.
It has happened a lot and could happen to anybody at anytime. There is no legal process for this. All somebody has to do is to write your name on a piece of paper. There is no judicial oversight for extraordinary renditions.
So I should only be worried if I am a muslim or anybody I know is a muslim? You are saying the USA only targets muslims with this? You are wrong. Non muslims and indeed Americans have been rendered.
I judge you by what you say to me. You sound like a paranoid delusional MAGA idiot who is incapable of criticising the USA and is convinced China is out to get them.
Because I travel to more than one country, and I don't really feel like I need to specify which. But in case you are interested: Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, and China are all countries I visit semi-regularly.
No I didn't. I said, rather flippantly, "You need to stop watching spy movies as if they were documentaries."
Look, as I said before, even if you are right and the US is so much worse than China, it does not invalidate my point.
You can go around worrying that the US is going to snatch you up because you said "fuck Obama" a couple of times online. I honestly don't give a shit.
Lol, ok. Now I know there is no point in further engaging with you. You really are an idiot.
And you are convinced that if you travel to Japan or Singapore or Taiwan China is going to snag you right?
And the point of that wasn't a denial?
Anybody can be put on a terrorist list for any reason. There is no court oversight.
The chance is not 0. Do I think it is likely? No. Do I think it is marginally more likely than the US declaring I'm a terrorist? Yes.
Why? Because the Chinese government does it more than the US. Even if they didn't, even if they were just as bad, or the US was much much worse, how does that invalidate my decision to use another brand of phone when I have that choice?
Do I think it never happens? No. Do I think it will happen to me? No. Do I think China is more likely to? Yes, even if that chance is small.
Again, how does the US being a worse dictatorship than China invalidate my decision to not use a Chinese brand phone? Two things can be bad at once. One bad thing is better than two bad things.
I don't understand how this is so hard for you to understand.
Your point? If you are trying to argue the US does bad things, I haven't disagreed with you. If you are trying to say that, therefore, China is fine, well, that's just whataboutism pure and simple.
The same can be said of the USA.
Then you are completely delusional.
Not even close. AFIK there are no documented instances of the Chinese government nabbing people overseas and there are numerous documented instances of the USA doing it.
Because it's irrational and based solely on some weird racist ideology.
Your name can go on a terrorist list at any time. Hell you could have the same name as somebody on the terrorist list and you'll get nabbed.
My only point is that you are an insane person who for some reason convinced himself that China is out to get him.
If you need to think I'm paranoid and racist to feel better about yourself, go right ahead. I couldn't care less.
I mean you are and it has nothing to do with me.
You are welcome to your opinion, it's a free country after all.