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this post was submitted on 09 Dec 2023
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chapotraphouse
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This whole propaganda campaign is really damaging to the Jewish community at large over the long term. Antisemitism is a very real problem with horrible consequences, as history shows. Equating anti-colonialism, anti-apartheid, anti-genocide, pro-palistinian, etc, speech with antisemitic speech undermines the credibility of organizations (the ADL), commentators, and victims of antisemitic attacks when they actually occur. Additionally, there is a very real possibility that it could push people towards actually hateful ideologies. "They lied about that. Maybe they lied about this, too."
Seriously, it's absolutely maddening to see Isreal drag Judaism through the mud in service of their crybully-ass genocide
It goes beyond that. Jewish is both a faith and ethnicity, so even those that aren't religious will face hatred from this.
I don't believe that Jewish is an ethnicity. That's like saying Catholics are an ethnicity. Judaism is just a religion. Any ethnicity can practice it. Same with any other religion.
That's factually incorrect. There is a Jewish ethnicity and a Jewish faith. A person can be one, the other, or both.
Zionists have pushed a thesis that there is a Jewish ethnicity but there is not one. There are multiple ethnicities where many if not most members are Jewish but to say a Jew from Eastern Europe and a Jew from Ethiopia are the same ethnicity is patently absurd if the word “ethnicity” is used consistently with how it’s otherwise used for any other “ethnic” group. Also, literally anyone can convert to Judaism and they are then 100% Jewish as are their progeny. You can’t just change your ethnicity like that.
There are three major Jewish ethnicities. For the sake of brevity, they aren't typically listed individually unless it is pertinent to the topic.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2017/9/20/invention-of-the-mizrahim
Not arguing with you, I just read this article some time ago and thought it was interesting
But this is exactly the point. Zionists invented the concept of Jewish ethnicity and then shoe-horned Jews of all different ethnicities into big boxes that don’t have any biological, cultural or scientific reality. Because they wanted to pretend like there was a consistent gene pool of people with common blood. But it was and is artificial.
Ashkenazi Jews are in fact an example of an ethnic Jewish population, due in part to specific cultural traditions and language (yiddish)
Right but that's not the same. There isn't one Jewish ethnicity. The Ashkenazi, Beta Israel and Sephardic are all separate Jewish communities and ethnicities
Sephardim and Ashkenazim are related.
Yes, related. Not one ethnicity, but one of many because they each practice their religion slightly differently and have their own uniqueness on their cultures and their origins and their language.
You're wrong. Giving r/atheism vibes of weird takes.
That's not my intention. My main issue with that comment is that Jewish can't be both a religion and an ethnicity. Thats the same vibe as Muslims is a faith and an ethnicity. I cannot just look at someone random and say they are Muslim or Jewish.
Honestly I maybe terribly wrong on this and I do appreciate everyone in this thread being chill. My main point is that I don't believe in looking at someone and immediately telling where they are from.
Well you just shouldn't do that anyway. But many Jewish people today are reformist and non-practicing. Meaning their ethnicity is what makes them Jewish. You don't have to assume anyone's ethnicity.
I know and I don't want to. I realise I didn't put my opinion on this as clearly as I should have been at the start.
Yes I understand your point and yes absolutely I don't have to assume anyones ethnicity based on their religion. I don't believe in that.
the various Hindu religions, or Shinto. Do you have the same issue? The largest Jewish population groups share considerable heritage.Islam generally is a universalizing religion, like Christianity. Both predominate in certain quarters but actively seek converts unlike ethnic religions. Judaism does not actively seek converts but it does accept them depending on the tradition. none of this is inconsistent with a Jewish ethnic identity parallel to but not synonymous with Jewish religion.
I don't have an issue with it but I don't want to generalise a type of person based on their religion. As you asked if someone is following Hinduism, I wouldn't immediately think of someone from the Indian subcontinent same as someone who is Muslim or Christian or Jewish.
I do recognise that some religions have more predominant ethnic followers and they are from specific regions of the world, but it's not always the case I don't think.
There's such a thing as an "ethnoreligious group", even if a lot of Jews are practicing their cultural history is entwined in a religious tradition. Even totally atheist Jews usually observe some religious practices for cultural reasons.
Yes I agree with you on that. I should have been clearer when I commented on it. I'm an atheist and I still have some traditions that I follow like Christmas and Easter but without the Christianity.
I did reply earlier which more or less clarifies the point I'm trying to make here: https://hexbear.net/comment/4360621
Yeah but most of those subgroups of Jewish people can usually trace their lineage back at least somewhat reliably to the Jewish diaspora.
Also most sects of Judaism aren't evangelical and don't actively seek out new adherents, only practicing within the bounds of their own community even if they do occasionally accept converts (and most converts are people who marry into the faith). Christianity isn't consider ethnoreligious cuz Christianity actively went out and sought new adherents in a variety of cultures.
No, I get that, but that's the thing, they spread out and adopted their own take on Judaism like the Sephradic Jews took Spanish and Latin words in their Hebrew language.
They know that and they're betting on being able to complete the ethnic cleansing and have it completely normalized by the west. Every neoliberal politician in the world is trying their hardest to shut down opposition because they also want to do the same to their own "undesirables".
I can't disagree with that at all. Beyond the obvious concern for others, my concern about this false campaign also includes myself. It's not dissimilar to the Jussie Smollett situation in the ways it will be used to deny injustices that have occurred. I'm not Jewish, but I am a POC in the US.
For example, the ADL does not just call out hatred against the Jewish community but other marginalized groups as well. The far right has been attacking the organization's credibility since its inception. They have now decreased or destroyed their credibility with those on the center-right and left by equating criticism of Israel with antisemitism. This includes myself. When they speak out about any actual hate, regardless of the target, it will now fall on deaf ears.
I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, but I'm frustrated that I don't see a way that this doesn't lead to more people espousing more extreme-right ideology.
the Apartheid Defense League collaborated with South Africa to spy on anti-apartheid Americans
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-04-21-mn-25487-story.html
I wasn't aware of that, thank you for that. The people of this world never fail to disappoint.
The ADL destroys its own credibility
Absolute dogshit losers
Zionism is totally removed from Judaism. It's a settler colonial project of the west. They don't give a fuck about the Jewish people in fact they hate them. But virtue signaling to spread colonization in the Middle East is still a win. So no nothing they do will be in the interest of Jewish people because it never was intended to.
Yeah but the zionists don't want you knowing that
Are you implying they're proving Jewish stereotypes to be correct and that's the problem? Not the stereotypes to begin with
Fuck that. You're literally doing that "black people should pull up their pants because they're giving into the stereotype when they sag." Dumbass
I would argue repeatedly lying to justify the continuation of a genocide, repeatedly getting caught in those lies, and still trying to play the victim is slightly worse than sagging your pants. Dumbass
That's not the argument you made. You said the problem was them giving into stereotypes.
I said it was bad they were getting caught lying to justify a genocide and calling everything antisemitism. I said it was bad the stereotype they used the media existed but them repeatedly getting caught doing it didn't help their case.
Didnt relaze that was such a controversial opinion it would get removed. But hey now it's been deletedd you can claim I said whatever you want so have fun.
Yeah it's extremely shitty to say "it's bad they're proving stereotypes correct." That's what bigots say. What you say before or after have no relevance. Don't say reactionary shit and it won't get removed.
Bigots say stereotypes are bad because people they hate do them.
Sagging your pants doesn't fucking matter, people say sagging your pants is bad because black people do it.
People didn't start saying "lying to justify a genocide is bad because jews do it" they just think it's bad that anybody would lie to justify a genocide.
That's what I have a problem with.
If you'd like to explain to me why I'm bad for saying they shouldn't lie to justify a genocide go for it. I'm saying you cannot call any criticism of you antisemitism if you're also doing a bunchbof bad shit for people to get mad at you.
You're just looking for something to get mad about and ironically getting pretty close to "saying it's bad to lie to justify a genocide is antisemitism"
What stereotype am I even supposed to be saying they're playing into because I'm pretty sure "jews are really bad at using media to control a natrative" is like, literally the exact opposite of the stereotype
That's one of the critical doctrines of Zionism. They want to make the rest of the world unsafe for Jews. They want ~~Occupied Palestine~~ Israel to be perceived as the only safe space for Jews. It provides cover for their ongoing genocide against the indigenous population.
Zionism and antisemitism are like:
But both the arms are extremely white.
Been saying for a while they should really be careful because already seeing the sentiment "they call literally everything they don't like anti semitism, who cares about anti semitism"
Literal boy who cried wolf situation. People use the term all the time I think a lot of them forget there was actually a wolf in that story that benefitted from the Shepard delegitimizing the threat of him.
I recently read a report about antisemitic incidents published by my country's Jewish community. The vast majority of incidents were justified anger over the zionist occupation of Palestine that was being misdirected towards Jews and Jewish institutions who have nothing to do with the zionist entity.
Zionists are not friends of Jews. They are not making Jews safe, they are campaigning for people to think of Jews as genocidal fascists. I wouldn't be surprised if 80% of antisemitism globally would disappear if the occupation and apartheid regime was ended.