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EU court says public employees may be barred from wearing head scarf
(www.reuters.com)
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this post was submitted on 28 Nov 2023
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I'm not from the EU and don't have the context to really understand the history of this decision, but this just seems so unnecessarily divisive.
It's a different approach to religious neutrality in government than the one used in the US, but I'm not convinced it's an invalid one.
(In the US we have difficulties over government employees refusing to do their legally required job because "it's against their religion" to process paperwork for people they disapprove of, e.g. The Gays.)
How does wearing a scarf inhibit these employees' ability to do their job? It is one thing if they posed a valid safety concern i.e theyre working around machinery that the scarf could get caught in but thats not the case here the vast vast majority of the time.
That's not what they are talking about. Basically, you can go two routes when ensuring that the state stays neutral in religious matters
You can go the US route and allow exceptions for anyone to live their religion (which leads to the aforementioned issues), or you can go down the route the EU court has just ruled alongside, which is "the state does not give a fuck about your religion", thus not granting any exceptions from workplace rules for religions at all. In botn cases, the state does not favour any religion or oppress anyone.
There is a third route, and that’s what the US actually does. You’re allowed to follow your religion within the requirements of the job. If you won’t issue gay marriage licenses, that’s cool but you can’t accept a job that requires issuing marriage licenses. Mormons and Muslims alike aren’t allowed to refuse to issue liquor licenses. But if a Muslim wants to wear hijab while issuing liquor licenses then they’re protected from persecution based on religion.
Christians keep trying to push the limits here and sometimes they get their way, but that’s part of our decent into christofascism, not the way we run our country
What do you think "oppress" means?
So "no state employee may wear religious symbols whatsoever" is "oppression" to you? How?
You didn't say "no state employee may wear religious symbols whatsoever."
You said:
yes. and they do not give a fuck either way. Be religious, be not religious, we don't care. Besides, the court's ruling is in the article, so I assumed people knew what was up and thus would detect my hyperbole as such.
That is a very false dichotomy.
No, it's not imho. For there to be a middle ground, there would have to be comparable things across religions or any ruling would become unfair. Think about it: You allow religiously motivated head scarfs. Now some really, really old school Christian comes in and wants to wear their penitential robe to work. Now, of course the orthodox jews want to wear their clothing as well, but their locks are dangerous at the worksite because they might get caught in some hard hat or something and you can't allow that. Now Christians and Muslims have a permission the Jews don't get. What do you give to the Jews instead? And if you give them something else, the others will claim they want something along those lines as well. So in order for the state to stay neutral in religious quesions, there are only two possibilities: Allow it all, or grant no special status whatsoever.
If there isn't a specific reason that something cannot be worn, such as a safety concern or an obstruction to others, then it should be allowed by default. A headscarf doesn't affect anyone. Same way a kippah doesn't affect anyone.
That is completely non-comparable to denying someone service on the basis of religion. And the idea that the only two options are allow religious people to discriminate on the basis of their religion, or ban all clothing that indicates religion, is a false dichotomy.
Or place reasonable scrutiny. “You can wear yarmulkes but no hair can extend below X location, the same applies for everyone and to head coverings. Also no flowing clothes for similar reasons this is a worksite and safety regulations must take precedence over religious garb”
"We don't care about your religion, but we DO care about requiring you to show your hair" seems like a silly stance to take...
Because it is, and the commenter you are replying to is making it seem like it's even remotely comparable to denying service to someone because of religious conviction (eg. Denying a marriage license to a same-sex couple).
Except it's not, unless people are somehow offended by a woman covering her hair.
It does, it just favors the dominant ethno-religous complex. Much of the western proffesional dress code has basis in christian ideals of modesty. These cultural signifiers don't occur to us though as they're so normalized. If you came to work dressed like Angela from the office you wouldn't be cited because the dress code was written with that attire in mind and people view it as normal. You'll be cited if you violate those ideas of modesty, eg. Showing midriff, or having different views on modesty, eg. A head scarf.
If you want to say it's completely neutral you'll have to exorcise all christian biases and assumptions from western culture, which they dont seem to be doing here.
One of the arguments that gets used is that the employees should look neutral. For example, if you want to get your gender changed you might not be comfortable with someone who is visibly associated with a religion that disproves of gender changes.
That is a valid argument. But given the lack of sympathy and support for the LGBT community otherwise, it is highly unlikely to be a major motivation. And the thing I wonder is whether this is or was also enforced on other religious symbols or is this specific to this particular one. If the former then it is consistent policy but if it is the latter that is another story.
Refusing to do part of the job would be an impairment of government function. A headscarf does nothing to impair function of the employee to do their job.
Rather by banning it there creates a undue barrier to the participation of women of this religious backgrounds in government by not realizing the modesty principles of their culture. It is more akin to not allowing a woman to work in a field unless she does so wearing nothing but her underwear.
It shows a sign the government endorses one religion over another. More importantly, we should not allow any religion in governmental offices and duties. Keep your stupid religion in your church. I don't want to see or deal with it when I'm dealing with the already shitty government experience. I don't need to deal with your mental illness, too.
Like it or not religion is a formative part of people's lives. If letting someone essentially wear a hat to work is "favouring on religion over another" then I can only posit that comes from a place of extreme pettiness. Where I am we have a large number of Sikh folk and I have gone into government offices and been served by agents wearing turbans a number of times. Not once has it ever been commented on. Not once have they ever mentioned their religion to me nor I commented on it to them. Neither would have been particularly proper because between the both of us in that professional setting it is quite strictly none of our business. I can't say that what the agents were wearing ever in any way altered my experience.
It is the attitude of killjoys and sour grapes to strip people of the things that make them feel confident in the way they conduct themselves when out in the world or at their workplace. Your feelings about a piece of cloth are not most important. You only have to deal with a government agent once in a while in a professional capacity and your very temporary discomfort is not to be highly weighted. For the person forced to give up the things that make them feel supported and comfortable they feel that lack every single day. It is a crushing and disheartening experience.
It is petty isnt it?
To me not having visible religious symbols when in public service seems very much in line with the idea of secular government