this post was submitted on 11 Oct 2023
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chapotraphouse

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Watch this...

Radio Free Asia: "did you know in North Korea they eat babies?"

Me: "I don't believe that."

Radio Free Asia: "WHAT?!?!? How did you do that???"

See. And I'm just a dumbass who does nothing but smoke weed and watch pirated b-horror movies. Whats everyone else's fucking excuse?

People fall for this shit because they want to, not because the state department has magical brainwashing powers. Propaganda doesn't mean people don't have fucking agency.

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[–] Hexbear2@hexbear.net 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)
[–] SunriseParabellum@hexbear.net 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah but I think my immune system is a wee bit stronger than the average ![reddit-logo](https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/4aac8007-876f-4c7f-936d-b7eabf506ef4.png "emoji reddit-logo")er

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No, there are just disparities in what you write off due to the differences in what you believe.

[–] RedDawn@hexbear.net 12 points 1 year ago (3 children)

How do you know that? Most people on this site aren’t just Redditors in reverse in that they’ll believe any outlandish claim about the U.S, for example, the way Redditors will believe anything about its enemies. A lot of people actually are better than that at verifying information as accurate before incorporating it into their belief system.

[–] RedQuestionAsker2@hexbear.net 9 points 1 year ago

Most people on this site aren’t just Redditors in reverse in that they’ll believe any outlandish claim about the U.S, for example, the way Redditors will believe anything about its enemies.

My experience has been that most hexbears will just accept whatever China says about itself at face value.

[–] arabiclearner@hexbear.net 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A lot of people actually are better than that at verifying information as accurate before incorporating it into their belief system.

I don't know, one example I can think of immediately is when people here immediately assumed Andrew Tate had cancer because of some news article that mentioned that his lawyer wanted to have the court free him for medical reasons. People here were immediately like "OMG HE HAS CANCER AHAHAHAHA!!!" without even critically thinking that it was a ploy by his lawyer to get him out of custody. If it's bad news about someone they don't like or good news about people they do like, most people (even hexbears) are quick to believe it. Hexbears aren't immune to that either.

Yeah, I think we think that, because we consider our opinions on politics to be carefully considered, that we forget there’s worlds of other topics that are tangentially related but that we don’t really give a shit about putting in the effort to be correct about.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I didn't say they are like an anti-NATO campist or whatever (campism is a stupid concept anyway), but more generically that they have different biases. This is because everyone does and everyone's ideology is ultimately downstream of their material position. The difference here is that it flatters a Redditor's view of the world to believe that the DPRK has feces quotas it collects from each citizen, it does not flatter our comrade's view that the US does the same because that information is incompatible with their beliefs (they are socially much closer to the US than any Redditor is to the DPRK). They are looking straight ahead and declaring that they have no blindspots because they can see perfectly well, when "straight ahead" is rarely where someone's blindspots actually are.

If you knew what to say and how to say it, you could get most of the people on this site to agree with very outlandish things (not because they are stupid, but because they are people), you just can't take an identical tact because their position is not actually the mirror of a Redditor's position.

[–] RedDawn@hexbear.net 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think I understand the gist of what you’re saying; still I feel like you can have different biases and also a different level of skepticism in general. If I hear that like the U.S. or Israel commit some new atrocity, that information is in line with what I already believe about those governments, but I’m still going to do a certain amount of looking into the claim and what the evidence for it is before believing it and repeating it.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sure, but we must consider why you do such things. I can hazard a guess: Because we are a minority opinion, the socially-designated burden of proof is on us irrespective of the kind of claim being made. We can point to the CIA literally stating in an official capacity that they did X and it's still a crapshoot whether the person we are talking to will consider us a conspiracy theorist for pointing it out. With some crowds, it is much worse talking about Israel (though with some it is better).

Redditors can just accept MSNBC slop because MSNBC is thought of as reputable. We and many of our sources are regarded as disreputable, which is why I can tell you offhand about like a dozen different liberal journalist or governmental reports on Tienanmen Square, it's effectively a type of opinion laundering, whatever we tell ourselves it is. It takes some effort for us to "clean" the case we want to make, while Redditors receive claims that are already "clean," but fundamentally it doesn't indicate as much of an internal difference in our attitudes as OP wants to believe. We have basically the same desire: To be making claims that will be regarded as reputable by the kind of people we are likely to be speaking with. It takes more work in our case, but that too is part of our social position, just like our ideology itself.

Mind you, I'm not even criticizing our practice. You know what I just said about laundering my opinions about Tienanmen Square through the liberal press? I'm going to keep doing it! I barely even engage with overtly communist (or even more generally anti-west) news sources because it just adds in extra steps. Just look hard enough at neoliberal slop, especially from the more "useful idiot" types who watched too much West Wing, and you'll see them tip their hands left and right.

I don't think it's as dishonest as my wording might imply. I view many political arguments as centering on stipulated premises, so it's really just a matter of picking and choosing what premises I want to stipulate. Even if some liberal saying "Yeah, I was sipping tea under the Mao statue on the morning of June 5th" wasn't the origin point of my stance, I'm not saying it was! I'm just presenting that claim (which, incidentally, I do also believe) because I view it as more useful to stipulate than something that is more central to my beliefs but more likely to be dismissed out of hand.

As an aside, here's one where we're in the same boat as Redditors: Have you ever looked up the Gonzalite boiling babies story? I tried to find a basis for it but couldn't.

[–] RedDawn@hexbear.net 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That’s a good point. I haven’t seen hard evidence for those stories, so I resign myself to not knowing for sure whether or to what extent it is true. In other instances where there is actually clear evidence of self described communists committing atrocities (eg Pol Pot) I do accept it as the truth.

Thanks for elaborating on your point, I see where you are coming from.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 3 points 1 year ago

The Pol Pot case gets wildly exaggerated in terms of the sheer magnitude, and I think there are even cases where western bombardment gets pinned on the Khmer Rouge, but it's absolutely true that the type of murder people talk about (e.g. killing some Cambodians basically just for being too "western") took place and that a very large number of people died. I seriously believe that Pol Pot was, on a scale relative to the power and population of the country he controlled, potentially a more destructive leader than Hitler, yet even the terrible things he did are not enough for anticommunists, who are so desensitized from pumping the numbers like they do in all cases, and therefore saw fit to pump the numbers for him has well.

I apologize for going on a tangent that makes me look like even more of a crank but, as you might be able to tell from the previous topic, I'm a bit anal-retentive about technical correctness (ironic, given what else I am arguing). Anyway, thank you for hearing me out on the propaganda topic, you helped me work through some thoughts I had.

[–] sooper_dooper_roofer@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

but I’m still going to do a certain amount of looking into the claim and what the evidence for it is before believing it and repeating it.

You don't need to do this

The west owns a hugely disproportionate amount of wealth, and you're also an english-speaker, so by default 99% of anything crossing your ears is going to either have a pro-western and pro-white and pro-capital bias, or be neutral

I wouldn't consider hexbear to have an anti-western bias either, it's just closer to neutral. An anti-western bias would have to be something like "each and every anglo saxon is unironically spawned from the loins of esau and has corrupt DNA" or something like that. Basically, due to the sheer scale of actual bad things the west is doing (and has done) it's hard to actually make untrue propaganda about it.

I would say it's impossible to make propaganda about the west that's anywhere near as false and unfair as the propaganda they make about others, simply because of the atrociously huge material wealth gap in both the past and present