this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2023
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[–] federalreverse@feddit.de 156 points 1 year ago (5 children)

What's going on in Denmark?

[–] SmoothOperator@lemmy.world 229 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (9 children)

It's base 20 like in France, plus the quirk that we have an ordinal numeral way of saying half integers, i.e. 1.5 is "half second", 2.5 is "half third", 4.5 is "half fifth". So 92 is said as "two and half fifth times twenty". We've since made the "times twenty" implicit for maximum confusion, so it's just said as "two and half fifths".

Also, the ordinal numeral system for halves is only really used for 1.5 these days, so the numbers don't really make sense to anyone. When speaking to other Scandinavians, we often just say "nine ten two".

Why don't we just change it to the more sensible system then? Because language is stubborn.

[–] sturlabragason@lemmy.world 98 points 1 year ago

Now imagine moving there as a foreigner from a normal country and someone telling you their phone number! It's like having a micro stroke.

[–] federalreverse@feddit.de 38 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

1.5 is "half second", 2.5 is "half third", 4.5 is "half fifth"

Interesting. ~~Regionally, some~~ Germans measure time like this, i.e. "half two" is 01:30 resp. 13:30. (Which is different from English, where people who say "half two" mean "half past two".)

We've since made the "times twenty" implicit for maximum confusion, so it's just said as "two and half fifths".

I know very little about Danish, but I learned that Danes slur the middle of most words. So I suspect you actually pronounce even less of the word than you'd write..?

Because language is stubborn.

Belgian French gives me hope.

--

[Edited: Usage is not regional]

[–] lugal@sopuli.xyz 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Regionally, some Germans measure time like this, i.e. "half two" is 01:30 resp. 13:30.

This isn't regional nor "some", I never met a German wo doesn't. Sure, there is "13 o'clock 30" and both are valid but I'd say the default is still the half system.

When it comes to quarters, there are regional differences and it's a common "ice breaker" or small talk topic when people from all over Germany come together.

[–] federalreverse@feddit.de 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I am dumb. I confused this with dreiviertel vs. Viertel vor.

[–] SmoothOperator@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

When we say "half two" we also mean 13:30. It's a pain when in Britain.

And yeah, I guess in pronouncing you'd say 92 as "to'å'l'fems" rather than "to-og-halv-fems".

[–] bstix@feddit.dk 9 points 1 year ago

It's pronounced "toh-år-hal-fems".

That's 3 syllables, because the first two are glissando, but even the most rural person needs some consonants between the rest to make any sense.

[–] sqw@lemmy.sdf.org 0 points 1 year ago

I’ve run into Americans for whom “half two” means 13:30. I like it but it confuses everyone.

[–] Zron@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago (3 children)

So the Danish can do this bullshit with everyday numbers and it’s cool because language , but I mention that it’s 70 degrees outside and everyone starts arguing about metric?

Everything is arbitrary, I’m gonna go build a dresser in multiples of rabbit foot while you all figure something out.

[–] DepressedCoconut@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago

Danish people are environmentally damaged by the flatness of their country and the rest of Scandinavia pitty them. We will take care of this. We will teach them how to speak. Soonish.

[–] Drigo@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 year ago

When we talk with other people in fx English we use their numbering system, and not our own

[–] Hamartiogonic@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 year ago

Temperature in fahrenheit is just as arbitrary as celsius. Fahrenheit makes sense from the perspective of human experience while celsius is very relevant to water. It’s really handy if you live in a area with snowy winters. Celsius is standard all around the world, while Fahrenheit is used in a handful of places.

[–] champagne_laugh@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

And to confuse even further, the cardinal number (ninety-two) is "to-og-halv-fems" in Danish without the *20. But if you need the ordinal number (92nd), then we add in the x20 as in "to-og-halv-fem-sinds-tyvende". Danish is very easy and transparent 😊

[–] Serdan@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I like our weird numbers tho 🥰

[–] MartinXYZ@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

They're lovely, aren't they?😀

[–] Blamemeta@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And yall give us shit about using imperial measurements

[–] kale@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

For what it's worth, the US doesn't use imperial anymore. It's "US Customary Units". It's mostly a mix of metric and units based on metric. The US uses volts, amps, watts, and seconds which are metric. The inch, by definition, is 25.4mm. I'm not sure how the US gallon (less volume than the Imperial gallon) is defined. Food content is given in calories and grams.

I'm also not sure how temperature is defined. Originally, temperature units were set so that fresh water boiled exactly 180 degrees above it's freezing temperature. To avoid negative numbers, zero Fahrenheit was set to the freezing temperature of sea ice.

[–] joneskind@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I have to admit, as a French myself I found relief in that discovery. And thank you very much for the explanation.

I was confused by the "2 and" at first, then I realize you put the smallest part of the whole number first. It makes perfectly sense if you count in base 20.

We also have an habit to count in base 12 and half 12 in France. Like "half a dozen" (6) or "one dozen and half" (18), but only for multiple of 6.

I will now say "quatre vingtaine et demie" instead of "quatre-vingt-dix" just to tease my fellow Belgians (who say "nonante" and "septante" instead of "soixante-dix" et "quatre-vingt-dix")

EDIT: As a matter of fact, I will rather say "trois et demi-cinquième vingt" for 73 because it sounds better. Now I see it.

If I am correct, the 3rd 20 is everything between 60 and 79. The half-3rd 20 is everything between 70 and 79. So 7 and half-2nd 20 would be 37?

How would you say 40, 60 and 80 then ? 2nd 20, 3rd 20 and 4th 20?

[–] Serdan@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The weird numbers only start at 50.

60: tre sinde tyve ( three times twenty).
80: fire sinde tyve ( four times twenty)

[–] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

30 (tredive) you cited seems to be the exception, as it's not “halbtots” or something.

[–] SmoothOperator@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Indeed, fyrre (40) is also clearly related to four (or fourth), it only kicks in at 50.

You can recognize the numbers where this system is in place by the 's' at the end, which is a remnant of the "-sindstyve" ending meaning "times twenty".

If it worked for 30 and 40 they would be "halvandens" and "andens".

[–] MartinXYZ@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I've always found the Danish numbers intriguing. I understand the whole "halvfem-sinds-tyve"- thing and the other ones of similar origin but I can't wrap my head around "elleve" and "tolv". Do you remember the origin of those?

[–] SmoothOperator@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not really, but they're essentially the same as the German "elf" and "zwölf", so we probably got them from the same place as them ;)

[–] vidarh@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Wiktionary suggests the common proto-Germanic root of eleven/twelve, elf/zwölf are likely to have been "ainalif" and "twalif" - "one left over" and "two left over".

[–] Bumblefumble@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago

It's literally the same in English as well, eleven and twelve are clearly related.

[–] samus12345@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

You can thank Proto-Germanic for that.

[–] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.de 39 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)
# 🇩🇰
1 en
2 to
3 tre
4 fire
5 fem
6 seks
7 syv
8 otte
9 ni
10 ti
11 elleve
12 tolv
13 tretten
14 fjorten
15 femten
16 seksten
17 sytten
18 atten
19 nitten
20 tyve
21 enogtyve
22 toogtyve
30 tredive
40 fyrre
50 halvtreds
60 tres (threes)
70 halvfjerds (½fourths)
80 firs (fours)
90 halvfems (½fifths)
92 tooghalvfems (twoand½fifths)
100 hundred

In Czech, we say „čtvrt na osm“ (quarter to eight), „půl osmé“ (half of eighth) and „tři čtvrtě na osm“ (¾ to eight) to mean 19:15, 19:30 and 19:45, respectively, so I kinda get it.
Similarly, in German, 🕢=„halb acht“.

[–] Bruno@feddit.de 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

TIL that it not French with the weirdest way to count. I still don't really get the Danish way. Even with your explanation.

[–] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It’s not really an explanation, just a table where I leave the linguistically inclined to figure it out. The point is, the “s” at the end is short for “×20” and “half fifth” is short for ●●●●◖ = 4½ (four and half of the fifth).

[–] Bruno@feddit.de 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thanks. Do you know the history of that?

[–] abecede@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Maybe the Danish don't just count with their fingers to 10, but include their toes... So 10 fingers + 10 toes = 20?

[–] vidarh@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

"Four score and seven years ago"‍ from the Gettysburg Address... Many languages have or had words for counting in 20's. They've just mostly gone out of fashion.

[–] thelastknowngod@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Funny enough, I grew up saying "quarter of eight" to mean 19:45. It took until my mid-20s to realize its probably a regional thing because, after I left Philadelphia (my home city) and moved to Chicago, everyone thought I meant 20:15.

[–] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago

Mmm, American using 24h time. I know nothing else about you but this gets you +0.5 on an attractiveness scale.

[–] Vacationlandgirl@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Oh! In New England "quarter of" is 15 minutes before the hour (19:45) and "quarter after" is 15 minutes after the hour (20:15). That might explain why my colleagues in Alabama were surprised when I left a meeting at 9:45 when I had clearly warned them I had a hard stop at quarter of ten!

Interesting distinction none of us picked up on!

[–] SourSweetChaos@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.de 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Ja, ich spreche auch ziemlich gut Deutsch. Ich würde aber lieber die Angelsächser mit meiner Fähigkeit „čtvrt“ (tschtwrt) zu aussprechen beeindrucken.

[–] froh42@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Username checks ou... oh sorry, I forgot where I am, for a moment.

[–] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.de 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

*czechs

Yeah, this is why I chose it – it represents me well. And not only is feddit.de the fastest Lemmy server for me, I spend lots of time with the Germans because Czechs are fine with Reddit and czech-lemmy.eu is empty.

[–] Kornblumenratte@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago

Now I followed your link and was overwhelmed by my intuitive understanding of the subtleties of the Czech language ... even better than reading Dutch ... until I noticed the "translate" in the URL :'-(.

[–] SourSweetChaos@feddit.de 1 points 1 year ago

Haha sehr gut ;)

[–] Uncle_Bagel@midwest.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thats pretty common in terms of time. I'm not going to say something is "half five" to say it coststwo and a half dollars though. I understand that with French and Danish you arent actually doing the math and just think of that string the same way i think of "ninety two" but it's still difficult to wrap my head around.

[–] Bumblefumble@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago

Just to make something clear, in this system, which isn't really used, half five would be 4.5, not 2.5.

[–] meldrik@lemmy.wtf 15 points 1 year ago

We play on Hardcore mode.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.one 3 points 1 year ago

You better have your operations in order!