this post was submitted on 26 Aug 2023
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chapotraphouse
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I agree with you and you're being really correct, but narcissistic is a slur. The origin of the word comes from the disability Narcissistic Personality Disorder. You're obvious talking about neurotypical behaviour, so could you use a different word?
The origin of the word actually comes from the Greek myth, and vastly predates the disorder but I'm going to assume you're just trolling.
Bad take, that's fucking dumb and you know it, the common usage of the term relates to the disorder not the mythological character.
we ban calling people a sch*zo here, why shouldn't we ban calling someone a narcissist?
As someone who used to have a personality disorder, I have a really hard time buying that they are akin to either neurodivergence or disability.
Like, personality disorders are generally defined as a set of maladaptive behaviors and symptoms that are in no way essential to a who a person is, but can be incredibly damaging to both the person and the people around them.
In my opinion, having words that precisely describe the disordered nature of these behaviors is necessary for both the person with the behaviors and the people they may have victimized. I'm highly skeptical of medicalization and strict diagnostic categories and whatnot, but words like narcissism have a tremendous amount of utility both for people raised by abusive parents trying to understand their behavior, as well as people who may exhibit these behaviors and need to realize they're toxic and should be worked on (I was both).
It's not the same as having different abilities or focus levels or whatever, the toxic behaviors should not in any way be tolerated. And they very much can be relearned given the right resources and a willingness to do so.
Personality disorders are divergences from normal patterns of thought and behaviour. In plenty of cases, they are caused by physical differences in the brain.
They are definitionally neurodivergance, and become disability when the resulting behaviours impact an individual's ability to function normally in society.
To avoid getting into a semantic debate, the essence of what I'm saying is there is systemic, oppressive otherization experienced by people who are neurodivergent or differently abled. Then there are people who (because of childhood trauma or for whatever reason) develop maladaptive behaviors and cognitive distortions that affect their ability to have healthy interpersonal relationships. The usage of certain words to describe the former can be problematic when the words serve to reassert systemic otherization or dehumanization. Whereas in my opinion words that describe toxic interpersonal behaviors aren't doing so. Thus narcissist isn't a slur and we don't need to be careful to tolerate "different" (read:toxic) behaviors like we should tolerate different capabilities and inherent, unchangeable characteristics that define people.
Well, you said that the word narcissist is useful because it helps people identify abusive parents. Which would imply you think there's some connection between being an abuser and having NPD. So the fact that you think a mental disorder is responsible for abuse is an example of that systemic, oppressive otherization that we narcissists experience. I was told by a former friend that I don't deserve to live, because narcissists don't have a shred of humanity. Is that not oppressive otherisation to you?
I see your point here. The negative stigma associated with personality disorders isn't great. And the way the disorders are viewed by some medical professionals, the way some medical professionals treat people they categorize as PD, probably qualifies as systemic otherization.
I'm gonna have to reflect on this.
I agree that it's not desirable to conflate the two in common usage, but I don't really see how that can be done while continuing to use those specific terms.
What constitutes toxic behaviour is culturally subjective. Many people in the first group would have been considered a part of the second not so long ago.
In this case narcissist is being used as a general insult for someone where we have no indication whether she's a narcissist or not.
we don't ban the word because it could have general use for someone who's actually a narcissist in the same way we don't ban the word schizophrenic except when it's used as an insult
My contest is with the idea that the medicalized category and its label takes supremacy over any behavior that uses the same label, especially when the specific behavior in question is defined by its problematic nature.
In crystalizing this issue, I can maybe agree calling someone a narcissist isn't ideal because it reasserts the existence and immutability of the category (which I and others believe is institutionally/socially constructed, not real in and of itself). But even so, the behaviors that define the word are not something I think should be tolerated or accepted, both due to their harmful nature and their ability to be relearned.
Narcissus is a Greek name. Narcissistic is an english word. The ancient greeks did not call anything narcissistic, because the word didn't exist.
The N word comes from Spanish but people who use it aren't speaking spanish, are they?
The English word "narcissistic" existed long before the diagnosis, just like "Sisyphean" exists without an attached disorder (ODD in another timeliness, maybe).
I find your claim dubious, but in any case, the N word existed in english before it became a slur too. But centuries of racial abuse made it into a slur
Why do you think the N word existed in English as anything but a slur? Narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder are not equal. I'm open to changing terminology if it's doing harm, but I think this one needs to be that the term for NPD should likely change. From what I know (and correct me if I'm wrong please), the common usage of "narcissism" has very little to do with NPD, which was coined later and seems almost derogatory in itself (in effect, grouping those with NPD along with the type of asshole commonly called narcissists)
Edit: I have been convinced that this story I was told was wrong about NPD. There doesn't seem to be a usage of narcissism outside of attempted psychological prescription before 1900 in english, and only first in 1899 in German which caused its use in English.
An English word that existed long before anyone was ever diagnosed with NPD. I'm very sorry for your diagnosis but trying to make an entire existing word unusable for everyone else is kinda the definition of narcissistic also.
X to doubt on your claim there, but why does that matter? The N word and the R word existed before they were slurs too. Are you going to apply the same logic there or do you have a unique hatred for pwNPD?
You doubt that a word meaning "like Narcissus" was used to describe behaviour similar to the popular thousands of years old mythological figure, before modern psychological science used it to describe a personality disorder?
Wouldn't choosing to maintain the fake sense of status that running an online community creates instead of deleting it because of the harm it does or will do definitionally narcissistic? Or is there a requirement here for such actions to be a lifelong pattern?
i would just change it to self-centered. this is an online topic that’s not worth the argument and also narcissism unfortunately does have lightly ableist connotations now since the word has now been medicalized
i think calling people narcissists is kind of a
ism in general and should be abandoned entirely for that reason when as you said 'self-centred' accomplishes the same aims.
Narcissists are only 1% of the population, yet we see this behaviour from anyone who owns a large platform. Unless you want to present the thesis that people with NPD are privileged because we own all the social media sites, we must conclude that this pattern of behaviour is common to neurotypicals as well.
narcissism doesn't have to be disruptive enough of a persons' life to be a disorder diagnosis. Should we start calling anxious feelings something else because some people have severe anxiety that we label a disorder? petty narcissism isn't the same as NPD and this is the first time i've seen someone try to equate the two.
I'm not really against moving off the word I just feel a bit odd about it. Like you point out.
I think with anxiety there's a small difference in that it's never used perjoratively. Whereas narcissism is. But I agree with you that if anxiety can be used descriptively for a type of behaviour without meeting the standards for it being a disorder narcisisstic behaviour can be the same thing without meeting the standard.
In the same way anxiety could also be replace with "uncomfortable" or "scared" but this would not be as strong in tone, not really describing the seriousness of the emotion. In this same way narcissism shares that.
Again though, not really a hill I'd die on or anything. It is certainly overused for even incredibly minor things at times.
Well, slowness doesn't have to be severe enough to be considered intellectual disability, but the R word is still a slur. And tan skin doesn't have to be dark enough to cause racial prejudice, but the N word is still a slur. It seems that from our pre-existing examples, the answer is that if people are going to use "narcissist" as a pejorative it's a slur
Again how is anxious not a slur or at least appropriative in your definition, seeing that it follows a very similar pattern of standard use followed by use in medical settings
By analogy, there is a reason that megalomaniac are more likely to be corporate ghouls or sociopaths are more likely to be cops, there is an element of self-selection.
Nah I think it's moreso the use of the word, but I've only ever known of it by that term; I'm not sure what other label would exist for it.
Well the word for self-interested behaviour is "selfish"
or egocentric
Egocentrism is something else. You're probably thinking of egotistical.
Egocentrists don't necessarily hold themselves in high regard, they just have a bias towards interpreting things as being about them. The most self-loathing person I know is highly egocentric.