this post was submitted on 17 Dec 2024
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As good as that video is, he ignores the strength elections have as damage control. Yes, large positive change needs the sort of efforts he's describing, but ignoring voting means a bad government will have far more opportunity to undo progress.
Really, the biggest takeaway from that video is that there are more tools than simply voting and protesting, which I don't think anyone is disagreeing with.
I don't think you got the main point of the video. Not only "large" change needs these efforts. Any progressive change does. As soon as there is no pressure by mass movements, politicians will drift to strengthen their power, which means moving to the right.
So the only way to keep and maintain a progressive government is to teleport from where we are now to the desired outcome? Is that the argument of the video?
If so, that seems not currently feasible.
Maybe you should watch it, then you don't have to ask such an ignorant question.
Sounds like you aren't clear on what that video is suggesting either. Why should I spend time to watch a video that no one seems to have understood?
I'm quite clear: electoral politics is merely a distraction for left/progressive forces. Rather, you should organize with your fellow exploited siblings and built opposing power structures from the bottom up.
He demands the opposite than wishful thinking, or "teleporting".
Is there a succinct way of articulating why we can't do both? (e.g. vote for the lesser evil while also doing all the mutual aid and whatnot that we can?) Does it boil down to the argument that voting makes people less likely to build said alternative power structures?
I'll watch the video when I have time, but communicating an actionable strategy I think is essential to folks in crisis.
You can, if you want to. Just don't waste your time on electoral politics.
Yes. Organizing is an actionable strategy.
Horses and water and drinking and whatnot
Ok, so why not vote for the lesser evil then? It would increase the amount of time we have to organize without fascists cracking down on us.
The fascists have already been cracking down on people trying to organize.
So your solution is defeatism?
A bold strategy, let's see how it pays off. /s
Yes! Why not vote for the lesser evil to prevent harsher crackdowns than you would otherwise get?
Because it doesn't prevent anything.
At the end, yes, both outcomes are the same unless organization is successful. Why make organizing any harder than it needs to be?
I think I have a rock that keeps tigers away to sell you
I am confused by your reply. What is the "rock" I am buying?
Did you watch the video? The rock that keeps tigers away is like voting that makes organizing easier.
Politicians react to organized mass movements, rather than elections. You got it backwards.
I did watch the video. I agree that mass movements are what is required for change. I don't understand, what am I buying?
You're "buying" that elections make organizing easier. Just like Homer is buying that a rock can keep tigers away.
How would having a more evil leader, one who hypothetically locks down freedom of speech and starts arresting people, make organizing easier?
Seems like that would make it harder to do.
I don't know how to explain to you that the issues we're facing are systemic and don't depend on the "right" individual being a leader.
How did we get here? I never said we needed to have a "right" specific individual being a leader.
All I'm saying is that I believe that if I have a choice to organize a progressive movement under either 100% Hitler or 90% Hitler. I would choose 90% Hitler. I feel like I'm not alone in that.
As I said: it's a systemic issue. I don't know how to explain that to you.
Which specific issue is systemic?
I'm confused because you keep on jumping around to different points, you argue against positions that I don't have, and you don't directly answer any of my follow-up questions.
If I wasn't sure that you honestly believe what you are saying, I would accuse you of intentionally muddying the water. This looks a lot like psyop stuff.
The issue the meme is decrying: that the political landscape and discourse is shifting to the right.
How often do I need to repeat that I don't know how to explain it to you?
I agree with that. I never disagreed with the meme.
It has never been my position that voting for the lesser evil will solve all of our problems or bring about a progressive government.
I have only ever argued that voting for the lesser evil will give the people who are trying to organize (us) a better environment for doing so. Voting for the lesser evil helps with the organization. It's weird to me that people are against voting for the lesser evil. I don't get it, I hope someone can explain it to me.
Can you please stop assuming what positions I have?
I'm not arguing against voting. I'm claiming that it's not a valid strategy. You can partake, if you really want to.
Ok, this could just be me getting lost in the comment chain. To be clear you don't think voting for the lesser evil is harmful, but you also don't think it is a valid strategy. If that is true, I see no inconstancies in your arguments.
Pretty much. Since electoralism is inconsequential for progressive change: vote if you want.
Advocating voting for a lesser evil could be considered harmful, though.
Why?
Because it suggests that it's sufficient for progressive change.
I don't think it does.
Don't get me wrong. I know people who want to believe voting is all that is necessary for progressive change, but they are wrong.
Edit: How does voting for the lesser evil suggest that it's sufficient for progressive change?
I said advocatingy for voting...
Ok how does advocating for voting for the lesser evil suggest that voting for the lesser evil is sufficient for progressive change? Is that better?
It suggests that people need to vote for progressive change and that congludes their options to enact power on the system.
Yeah, that makes some sense. But you could just tell people that voting for the lesser evil alone is not enough, you also need to organize. I feel like that is pretty clear. That way you can have your cake and eat it too.
Was supporting genocide "damage control?"
Supporting the lesser evil is damage control. Yes, Harris is far from great, but Trump is far worse.
Here's the question I asked.
That's the question I answered.
Which would you rather support?
Pick one or give an alternative and a good reason that it will have some effect.
The lesser evil in this situation is genocide without all the other shit, and supporting that is therefore damage control
When a non-evil person reaches the conclusion that a government is unavoidably committing genocide, there next thought is "how can we bring about the end of this government?", not "how can I maintain the good times for me personally?". But Democrats are callous psychopaths.
Also, it's already fascism you ghoul.
Sorry, I thought I made it clear. What Biden did when he supported genocide for you is not "damage control" even though you love him for it.
A. Please tell me exactly where I said Biden was anything more than a mildly less shit alternative to Trump. And please tell me where I was saying support the genocide, rather than support one of the people who supports the genocide.
B. I have not been talking about what Biden should have done. I have only been talking about what voters should have done.
Welp, you just saw that "damage control" has a limit. People will stay home if they see insufficient difference between the two pro-genocide parties.
This election should have taught you that you can't control voters beyond giving them a reason to vote for you. Not being the other guy is not a good enough reason.
Third parties are electable when they can do this better than the two major parties, and people stop buying into the propaganda you are spreading. They are legitimized when you vote for them. They are a threat to the major parties that can only be realized if you vote for them.
Except, not you, because you're not an American voter, so why are you here again?