this post was submitted on 10 Dec 2024
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And your argument was off the rails to begin with when you decided to defend Russian imperialism.
And I'm acknowledging the context you're leaving out: that Russia has been an expansionist, imperialist oppressor country for centuries, and that the newest excuses are just that - excuses. Can't you see how Putin is playing you, using your commendable anti-Nazi position to get you to unintentionally defend his imperialistic talking points?
NATO does not annex land. Russia does. I am not against willing countries joining their forces. I am against wars of conquest where one party subjugates the other or steals their land. Countries apply to join NATO, and many of those who want to join are not invited to join. Ukraine among them. What was the last time a country willingly joined Russia?
So do I understand your point correctly, that what NATO has done is wrong, and therefore what Russia is doing is also wrong?
Then we don't disagree.
Do we also agree that, as a hypothetical, even though both sides do things which are wrong, both sides can also sometimes do things which are good?
And, again as a hypothetical, do we agree that one of these good things is helping a third country which is the victim to one of the wrongs of the other country?
Such as the Soviet Union helping the Vietnamese fight off the Americans.
Or America helping Ukraine fight off Russia.
If the US manufactured this war, why does Putin keep at it? Why does he keep playing into US hands? Isn't continuing this war what the US wants from him?
Lots of countries bordering Russia tolerate Russian military positions across the border without invading.
Many of the countries consider Russia untrustworthy if not outright hostile, like Russia considers NATO, so following Russian standards all the reason for an invasion would be there.
Of course Russian army is a threat even when it is in Russia. Russian army in Russia has been a direct threat, recently, to Chechnya, Georgia, and Ukraine.
Unfortunately I need to go now so I cannot keep replying, but I thank you for the enlightening if adversarial discussion. I think we agree on certain principles, but disagree on some fundamental aspects of the situation. While neither side is entirely blameless, our main disagreement seems to stem from the question of who bears the main blame for the situation. You place the main blame on the US and NATO, whereas I place it on Russia. I would like to expand on that a little bit.
I am saying this in completely good faith, to explain where I'm coming from, and to hopefully help you understand my point of view a little better. I hope you take it in good faith as well.
Russia has always chosen to deal with its neighbors through demands, threats, and violence. As Russia has been a large, powerful country for a long time, its smaller neighbors are obviously terrified of Russia throwing around its weight and subjugating and oppressing them. This is not a new thing; it has gone on for centuries in different forms. Every time Russia has had its excuses. It has almost never been Russia's fault; Russia has almost always been "provoked" into it by someone else, or that's what they say. So any reasons they give for their invasions today ring equally hollow.
Russian aggression has consistently driven Russia's neighbors away from Russia to the laps of those strong enough and willing to oppose Russia. For these countries, the strong Russia next door, willing to demand things and to use its military, is a far greater and more direct threat than any faraway power, no matter what evils that faraway power may commit elsewhere. It is Russian actions that have driven its neighbors to NATO and the US. Ukraine is not a US puppet, pushed into the war by US; instead, Ukrainian will to keep oppressive Russian influence away simply happens to align with US interests. Instead of the US using Ukraine, you could almost say that Ukraine is using the US as a tool to fend off Russian influence, which they do not want - and which they did not want even before any hypothetical CIA meddling, since they haven't wanted it for centuries.
If Russia had instead chosen to build friendly cooperative relationships with its neighbors during its history, particularly after the Second World War, it is very unlikely that its neighbors would have felt the need to align themselves with "the West". But Russia has consistently pushed everyone away, and then wonders why nobody likes them. To me, blaming the US for what is going on in Ukraine is a very historically myopic view of the complex situation, a situation dominated by Russia being not so nice to its neighbors throughout history. Sure, the US is not an angel. But for those who want to rid themselves from centuries of Russian oppression, the enemy of their enemy is something like a friend.