(i ripped this off wikipedia real fast so sorry if it's lib)
In October 1776, the Public Universal Friend contracted an epidemic disease and was bedridden and near death with a high fever. Their family summoned a doctor from Attleboro, six miles away, and neighbors kept up a death-watch at night. The fever broke after several days. The Friend later reported that [deadname redacted] had died, receiving revelations from God through two archangels who proclaimed there was "Room, Room, Room, in the many Mansions of eternal glory for Thee and for everyone". The Friend further said that [deadname redacted]'s soul had ascended to heaven and the body had been reanimated with a new spirit charged by God with preaching his word, that of the "Publick Universal Friend", describing that name in the words of Isaiah 62:2 as "a new name which the mouth of the Lord hath named".
From that time on, the Friend refused to answer to their deadname, ignoring or chastising those who insisted on using it. When visitors asked if it was the name of the person they were addressing, the Friend simply quoted Luke 23:3 ("thou sayest it").โ Identifying as neither male nor female, the Friend asked not to be referred to with gendered pronouns. Followers respected these wishes; they referred only to "the Public Universal Friend" or short forms such as "the Friend" or "P.U.F.", and many avoided gender-specific pronouns even in private diaries. When someone asked if the Friend was male or female, the preacher replied "I am that I am", saying the same thing to a man who criticized the Friend's manner of dress (adding, in the latter case, "there is nothing indecent or improper in my dress or appearance; I am not accountable to mortals").
editorial note: I think this is a very cool story and I really love hearing it. We've been around forever and we've been doing variations of this forever. It's really beautiful
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I have rotted my brain out, no cws
Okay so like... if no physical trait or anything is inherently gendered, which is true, then surely hormones and other physical things like that can't be an aspect of gender expression...? Just looking at that written down I realise I must be missing something, but my brain is sort of dumb right now. Stop taking gabapentin and The Gender Thoughts awaken immediatelyWell, incongruence between one's physical body and one's mental image of one's self would still exist without gender. But yes, socially constructed roles have an immense impact on people's psyche. This is already partially recognized by the mainstream transgender community through the existence of social dysphoria as a subtype of gender dysphoria.
But that incongruence wouldn't be (isn't) a gender matter, then?
I wish they didn't have immense impact on the psyche
kinda fucked up Idk. Social dysphoria...
Humans have sexual dimorphism, personal preferences, and can dissociate. You'd still have "trans" people transitioning their bodies in a post-gender world. Any specifics are hard-to-impossible to theorize about but would be great to explore in science fiction.
I want this scifi...
You'll probably have to write it yourself because most scifi takes place in the political present.
This got me thinking. This isn't fully thought out and also isn't entirely on topic, but, here goes.
I didn't realize I wasn't cis until I was like 28 or something. But, I'd wanted a hysterectomy since I learned what they were in high school. For me, the strong, strong desire to not have a uterus has never really felt that gendered. Now that I realize I'm trans and have had top surgery and am on testosterone and have "socially transitioned", whatever that means for the weird agender goblin that is me, it's easier to conceptualize the immense comfort that comes from my lack of uterus as a gender feeling, because that's consistent with the rest of my gender journey. But your comment has me thinking maybe that's not right. Maybe me wanting a hysterectomy so strongly for so long isn't exactly anything to do with gender, even though in our current society it certainly feels like it must have something to do with gender.
Railing against terfy transphobia:
Also, I hate hate hate how terfs think removing a "healthy" uterus is self-harm or comes from a place of self-hatred. I know what self-hatred and the ensuing self-harm feel like and let me tell you, removing my uterus was not that. Getting a hysterectomy is one of the best things I have ever done for myself.Also, hilariously, I recovered so, so quick from my hysterectomy. Two weeks afterwards and I was fully back to normal. I took myself (on the bus) to my 2-week checkup and the nurse was like "wow, you're moving around so great, it's only been 6 weeks, you're doing great!" and I'm like "uh, it's only been two weeks, actually". My body needed that awful (for me, great for other people) organ removed and I've never felt such a relief in my life as waking up after surgery knowing it's gone.
Your comment is a large part of what I'm trying to parse I think, yes. Stuff like that is Not Inherrntly Gendered since people of several different genders have (or want โจ) a uterus, for instance, but a hysterectomy is often part of gender affirming care, which like, how can both be the case... smallbrain moment. As near as I can tell, in a post-gender society processes like these will just be disentangled from gender, which rules.
Also I love a semiofftopic ramble lfg
What terves be sayin
The "removing a healthy uterus is self harm" line is such fucking transparent shit. Oh, better not remove anything unless it's unhealthy because YOU BETTER KEEP YOUR BODY NICE AND CISNORMATIVE. ANYTHING ELSE IS DAMAGING OR SELF HARM. That's all they ever do, is uphold cisnormativity, or sometimes heteronormativity, or misogyny or sexism if your terf is particularly spicy! Eye-rolling fuckers.Two weeks of recovery sounds fucking awesome, hope anything surgical I elect to undergo is as smooth as that...
This is how I feel when thinking and discussing so much about being trans! So much of it seems to be downright contradictory and yet these seeming contradictions I know to be entirely true! I'm actually really grateful I'm trans, because I don't think any other of my life experiences have shown me such stark contradictions where both are true. I feel like it's really opened my, I dunno, mental possibility space let's go with I guess. Wacky!
asshole terf shit
Isn't it just so transparent? Like, god forbid I get to make a permanent choice about my body that cisnormative society doesn't like, my goodness. I must be harming myself, clearly. I do not have enough eyes to roll quite honestly.And yeah, my hysterectomy recovery was straight up miraculous! Top surgery was nowhere near as easy. I just take it to mean I never should have had a uterus and my body was extremely very happy to be rid of it.
It can be tough to parse this stuff out, I'm just thankful there are people smarter than my goofy ass out there
Being trans does rock though, huge fan, bewildered that the cis never think about this.
lol losers lol
Terfs are so funny, "feminism is when we dictate to people what choices they can make about their bodies" would be a genius bit if it wasn't real.Hell yeah! I very frequently am quite
myself!
what is "gender expression" at that point if nothing isn't anything?
This is truly the question
presentation, mainly, I would think.
i think in like a utopian vision individual presentation/expression would basically not be entangled with gender at all, gender having been transcended and essentially discarded on a collective level. maybe there would be echoes of gendered presentations from today's time, but they would hopefully be seen merely as a style or fashion that anyone could easily adopt without second thought or judgement.
@Tomboymoder@hexbear.net I guess it's this?
why is presentation gendered, but not tits?
Everyone presents some kind of gender, or maybe lack thereof. Quick, do no men have breasts?
is it not possible for a man and a woman to have the same "presentation"?
You didn't answer my question, but at that point one of these two people is presenting a gender outside of the binary, or at least on the other end from what their gender is.
why?
What do you mean, "why?" If a cisgender man and a cisgender woman have the same gender presentation, one of them has done something not very binary gendered, or at the very least outside of their assigned gender.
If you want to make the argument that physical traits are inherently gendered, do it straightforwardly instead of talking around me or disengage.
how the fuck is clothing inherently gendered, but not fucking sexual characteristics??
If you really wanna get into it in good faith, presentational aspects, clothes and such, only have the genders they're given which is societally constructed. There's nothing innately "female" about ankle length skirts but they're seen as a feminine thing in the west right now. You either take that into account or decide to flout it deliberately.
Any human of any gender can have any physical characteristic, ergo, no physical characteristic is gendered.
There is nothing innately "female" about breasts but they're seen as a feminine thing in the west right now. You either take that into account (by binding etc.) or decide to flout it deliberately.
I mean, I don't think I disagree really. Breasts being seen as feminine is wrong and terrible and a cisnormative notion, so we should be getting rid of it.
so then what IS "gender expression" in a world where clothes and characteristics have no gender?
That's sort of what I'm asking, presumably something much cooler and without baggage. I guess you could say that in our world, gender expression exists in relation to the gender binary, whether it plays within it or breaks it. If you think physical traits and characteristics have innate gender you have work to do.
Hit me up when we get clothes and everything else degendered, though I'm not entirely certain we should degender clothes necessarily. I don't know if it's as harmful as saying that breasts are female for instance.
just posting to remind to keep things civil in this thread