633
We'll have a long memory as things get worse for working class Americans, minorities and women
(lemmy.world)
this post was submitted on 12 Oct 2024
633 points (73.7% liked)
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To convince Greens or Carlins (people who don't vote because the Democrats are still too evil from their point-of-view) to vote for Democrats, you need to understand yourself and them. Once you do that, you'll be able to offer more convincing arguments to support your position.
If you're voting for Democrats, you possibly agree with the following scale of evilness:
The thing is that Greens and Carlins see the world very differently:
The Greens' and Carlins' priorities are very different. They may think that choosing to make the biosphere unlivable is the worst thing you can do, because without a biosphere that supports life, nothing else matters.
They may think that torturing trillions of fish to death every year, and enslaving hundreds of billions of animals in torturous conditions every year, is worse than all genocides and wars in all of history combined. They think that supporting even a single genocide is bad.
They may think that given the choice between popular Hitler, popular Stalin, and unpopular Gandhi; they'd rather vote for Gandhi than the popular lesser evil, because that specific evil is omnicidally evil. It's better to vote for good and fail, than it is to vote for evil and succeed.
One of the parties CENCORED the EPA from using the word climate change and dropped the USA out of the accords.
HOW FUCKING BRAINDEAD WOULD YOU HAVE TO BE TO LET THAT BASTARD INTO THE OFFICE AGAIN!!!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2024/08/16/biden-oil-drilling-production/
In a binary system they are sadly still better than the other choice. Vote at every instance for greener alternatives inside the democrats and election reform.
For me its even simpler though. All of these logical shenanigans are the circular energy that fuels the myth around the unchangeable two party system. If people simply voted for the candidate based on their values and policy, literally everyone to a T, it would shatter the two party system into fragments, and we would have to do something to accommodate them.
Thats at least my theory, although I still voted Harris because in my case my vote is in a place that matters. I would say I'm about half and half happy and upset about it but thats the best I could manage with the circumstances.
I do think momentum is building though if we can continue it through the coming years.
Your theory has been proven wrong every single time it's ever been put to the test.
So has yours! Noones been able to change the two party system so far!
Yes, they have. They've moved both parties to the right on economic issues because a lot of the country either chooses not to vote or votes this party (which is like choosing not to vote, but with more ways resources), giving the GOP victories it shouldn't have and teaching the Dems they aren't conservative enough.
The democrats move right because they want to win those voters. I wonder what might make them move left...
Clearly not voting third party because it's never fucking worked.
If you really want to change the Dems, vote Dem in the primaries and get involved in the party at the local level. It's shockingly easy to make real change at the local level where 50 people show up for an election.
Example of when it was tested?
Yeah. Every election in the US. Everybody can vote for whoever they want. And when people vote for someone that isn't one of the majority parties we get George W Bush instead of Al Gore.
If just 1% of Nader's Florida voters had voted for Gore instead imagine how much better our would would be.
Gore won that election
Gore couldn't prove it before time ran out because Florida had to certify it's results and didn't have time for a statewide recount. That's the most important part of the Bush v Gore cases.
There's a set election date (Tuesday following the second Wednesday in December - December 17th for 2024, but December 19 in 2000) when the ballots are cast. However, 1 will prior to that date is when the states must have the votes certified and transmitted to Congress with all legal challwnges settled. It's the Safe Harbor Date and has been law since 1887. It was not invented by Conservative justices in 2000.
So for Gore to win, the state totals following the limited recount would have had to favor him. They did not. He lost in Florida by 537 votes after the recount. Nader received 97,431 votes in Florida.
If just 1% of the Florida Nader viewers had voted for Gore, Bush would not have been President even with the Supreme Court stopping the recount.
No it wouldn't, the two largest parties from that first vote would eventually consume everything else and then we'd be right back where we started.
Unless you intend to abolish FPTP, arguing your intention to vote third party is mathematically the same as arguing your intention to vote for the 2 party candidate who is least like you.
You do know a vote is worth more than just the tally it adds to your candidate right? A vote not changing the result of an election is not the same as not having an effect on politics.
No, it literally is the tally. Under FPTP it is entirely just the tally.
This math has been explained endlessly, trying to escape the proven math doesn't make you some believer in higher ideals and callings, it makes you complicit in the destruction of the republic.
Well claiming proven math just isnt the slam dunk you think it is unfortunately. But you are allowed your perspective, I just disagree with it.
The math doesn't care about your traitor perspective.
Defend the republic or be counted with the fascists who destroyed it.
How many people do you think who you've called a traitor are actually going to agree with your position for it? Its eerie how similar that rhetoric is to the republicans right now.