this post was submitted on 02 Sep 2024
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How does catching, raising, or hunting meat compare to planting or gathering their own plant-based food?
Or how does 'free or subsidized meat' compare with free or subsidized plant based food?
as the deer spends all year gathering nutrients, and they can spend one morning gathering the deer, it seems to me it's highly effective.
Most vegans would allow an exception for certain lifestyles. People hunting for their homestead aren't going to cause a global issue like is currently happening.
Ideally we wouldnt hunt at all but thats like some sort of futuristic goal. Noones going to tell you to starve your family to appease veganism, thats not the point.
The point is to reduce suffering and abuse wherever possible. Sometimes its not possible.
that's not what the vegan society says about animal exploitation.
Lol, ok so you're including labor cost?
A couple years of a dear 'gathering nutrients', vs a summer of cultivating a garden and harvesting? Or do I need to include the energy expenditure (energy ingested by the dear minus energy lost to biological processes, vs solar energy collected minus energy expended on building plant mass and energy expended in harvest)?
I was really just pointing out the absurdity of your complaint about the study but you're making this into a fun little digression.
it costs us almost nothing to take down a deer. it costs us a great deal to raise a garden.
Costs nothing to harvest a plant, too.
Costs a great deal to own a gun and ammunition, a truck to haul, tools and labor to clean and butcher, and more to store and prepare it. To speak nothing of the labor of the dear to produce the biomass.
Lol we can keep going with this if you want, it's pretty fun.
foraging for plants is a lot less calorie efficient than hunting or fishing.
Lmao not if you're hunting with spears!
Or are we allowed to use tools in this hypothetical digression?
you're the one obsessed with defending a paper whose scope was too limited to cover any of these scenarios so do what you want i guess
You're the one obsessed with dismissing the paper based on qualifiers beyond the scope of the research, so you do you I guess.
i'm not dismissing the paper. i'm explaining how it's being deceptively framed.
I don't think there was anything deceptive about its framing, it was addressing the claim that 'vegan diets are a luxury'
but it doesn't actually show whether poor people can afford a vegan diet. it's misleading.
It's not trying to prove that people on food stamps can afford a diet the government hasn't designed their food program for them to afford lmao
no, but beaver's claim that it's 30% cheaper may not be true for those people. i mean it could be. it could possibly be EVEN CHEAPER. i don't really know. and the linked oxford study doesn't tell us.
YES, now you're getting it
this smacks of bad faith.
Lmao I thought that's what you were doing
if it's free, then throwing it out and acquiring plants is more expensive.
If it's free then throwing it out costs nothing though, right? Or are you talking about the cost of the state subsidy?
Wouldn't it be cheaper to the state to subsidize a plant-based diet instead?
regardless of what would be a good decision for the state, the oxford paper doesn't acknowledge the material conditions of most people.
It acknowledges the material conditions of production
i don't see what your point could possibly be. most people will not find it cheaper to be vegan without significant changes to both their own lifestyle and systemic change. the oxford paper completely ignores anyone who isn't
The paper is discussing the cost of the diet, not the safety net programs that are built around the american diet.
A paper that analyses the consumer choices and systemic hurtles to eating a vegan diet it would be a different paper, and it would be making a different point than this one.
so the headline that is used on the site, and the excerpt used to create the link in this thread both need some heavy caveats. without proper context, both the claims made by them are actually false.
Without reading the paper you could interpret from it anything you wanted, I suppose.
which seems to be the goal of both beaver and the editorial staff who posted the fluff piece that beaver linked.
Maybe to you.... To me it seems like you're trying to post-rationalize your choice to eat meat and not a vegan diet
we haven't said anything about my diet. i'm talking purely about the merits of the paper raised in this context.
No you were talking about what OP seemed to be saying, and I was talking about what you seemed to be saying
i never made this about myself at all. i'd prefer if you didn't make tihs personal.
I'm not trying to make this about you, i'm just trying to respond to what I think you're trying to argue that you didn't explicitly say
then kindly leave me out of your analysis.
How can I leave you out of an analysis that is about something you said? You're just being ridiculous now.
that's what i'm asking you to stop doing. stop making it personal.
We can't have a discussion at all if we're not allowed to address the statements and intent of the other.
I'd kindly ask you to stop making it about the things I'm doing. You're making it personal.
but replacing it would cost something. throwing away perfectly good food isn't something most people think is a moral good.
I thought your point was to disregard the morality of the diet and focus on the economics?
this subthread was about beaver's misleading link.
Their link was addressing the claim that eating vegan is a luxury.
For what the comment was responding to I think it was perfectly well framed, but you can extrapolate anything you want from it if that's your thing.
and it did so misleadingly, as being in teh position to always pay full price for food at a store is a luxury.
Not if by 'cost' they meant 'cost', and not 'what they get from the state at no cost'
if i have food, throwing it away and getting more food is more expensive.
The paper wasn't discussing food stamp programs or even what food you might already have
right. it's simply not scoped to support the claim tha being vegan is 30% cheaper
What they claimed was "a whole foods plant-based diet is 30% cheaper."
Which is factually supported by the study, even if you'd prefer to interpret it to mean something else
...for a limited segment of the population.
It's actually not speaking about the personal costs born by consumers, it's talking about the cost of purchasing food for the diet.
As I said, if the paper was discussing the systemic hurtles and personal choices of consumers it would be a different paper, saying a different thing.