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While I agree with you, I can't entirely discount /u/oakey66. History has proved it for decades.
I can't discount that there are plenty of Israeli bigots who would love to see Palestine wiped out, sure. But let's not pretend they're a hive mind. And maybe not tar the people doing this with the same brush as the ones rioting over rapists being imprisoned.
If there are dissenting voices in Israel they need to speak up. And if voices within Israel are speaking up they need to be amplified.
All dissent I've heard has come from the diaspora.
“Without the return of the hostages we will not be able to end the war, we will not be able to rehabilitate ourselves as a society,” Ron Tomer, president of the Manufacturers’ Association of Israel. Te me, “Rehabilitation” implies a level of dissent with Netanyahu’s actions.
I mean, I see what you are saying, but that is pretty rhetorically light. I can see this as maybe the start of something, but I think what we're seeing out of Israel warrants a more focused and directed conversation.
Then maybe you should, I don't know, click on the link at the top of this article and look at the photos.
Or possibly just read the headline of the post you're commenting in.
For fuck's sake...
They are protesting the retrieval of the hostages; not the genocide of the Gazan people. As far as I know, there are almost no voices in Israel speaking out against the genocide of the Gazan people.
Maybe you should read the article.
This article?
I read it.
Why are you gaslighting?
The trigger for the protests and ceasefire demands was for the rescue hostages, not the end of the ongoing genocide.
Yes, I know what triggered them. What do you think they want Netanyahu to do? Kill even more Palestinians? Is that what you think they're calling for here? Bomb harder?
Because they're literally calling for the opposite. Isn't that a good thing?
There's no doubt that a good chunk of the population does want Netanyahu to kill even more Palestinians. These people didn't start protesting over their actions against the Palestinians. So once they have the hostages it's a safe assumption that they will stop protrsting and demanding a ceasefire.
No that is not a safe assumption. They are not a hive mind.
If what you're saying is true then there would have been protests of this magnitude the moment the news started coming out about what the IDF is doing.
Sorry... you're saying it is true that Israel is a hive mind and there is 100% agreement on the genocide in Palestine or else just as many people would have protested at the beginning?
I'm saying a significant portion of the Israelis would have been protesting from the beginning if they cared about the Palestinians.
Okay, but no one said that a significant portion of Israelis were against it. This is what you said:
That is only true if every single person protesting feels that way. And that would only be true if they were a hive mind.
Some Israelis have been protesting since the beginning of the war. Yes, they are not huge in number, but they exist. Were you even aware of that?
I have no doubt in my mind that there exists some Israelis that are kind and compassionate and are completely willing to coexist with the Palestinians. But those people will always be in the minority. We're talking about a country whose whole existence is based on the displacement and eradication of the native population. The genocide of the Palestinians started long before Oct 7th. The only thing that has changed is how quickly it's happening.
Then, again, it is not a safe assumption that protesting will stop.
All saying things like that does is discourage internal opposition when it should be encouraged.
What do you think it would feel like if you spent a year doing everything to protest your country committing genocide and everyone just decided you didn't exist?
When describing the actions of a country, the minority who oppose those actions are not relevant. At the end of the day hostages or no hostages the Israeli nation will continue it's eradication of Palestinians as well as executing journalists and aid workers to help silence their actions. That is a fact that is based on plenty of past events.
I really do appreciate it when people speak up against the wrong actions of their nation, especially when they are in the minority. Based on your comments it sounds like you might be one of them, and if that's the case it says a lot about your character. I'm just sorry your voice and the voice of others isn't enough in this case.
Of course they're relevant! They need to be encouraged! Saying it isn't enough just makes them stop protesting.
A minority protested the Vietnam War and kept doing it until minds started to change.
The fact that a lot of Americans are now saying "Huh maybe we shouldn't have invaded Vietnam." Is a small comfort to the innocents slaughtered, the families torn apart, the lands destroyed, the children deformed from chemicals like agent orange, etc. Yes, the minority became a majority, but have you ever heard of the saying "too little, too late"?
Maybe I should have said "not immediately relevant". People like the original commenter and myself are simply remarking that the majority of the protestors don't care about Palestinians. At worst, they are for it, and at best they just look the other way. The portion who are vocally against it are important, but again, they are a minority. That's the comment on Israel, that the majirity of the country simply don't care for the Palestinians. And this time, unlike in Vietnam, when it becomes too late, there will be no more Palestinians.
@oakey66@lemmy.world started this thread with the topic:
and they are right.
You said:
I pointed out that I've seen there are no sources I've seen to the contrary coming out of Israel. Everything I've seen to the contrary (sources which would make the argument that Israel should not be engaging in genocide, agreeing with @oakey66@lemmy.world 's point ) has been coming from diaspora sources, not sources within Israel.
You then responded with:
But the headline of the article does not make that point, and neither does the article. In fact, its another unit of evidence to suggest there is almost no will to stop the genocide of the Gazan people coming from within Israel. The word genocide occurs no where in the article. There is no mention of forced removal. There is no mention of ethnic cleansing. These protests clearly have nothing to do with the ongoing genocide of the Gazan people and are solely focused on "getting the hostages back". If there are other sources or people that can speak for the protests that say other wise, I'd love to find them. I've not found anyone in Israel willing to call what the Israeli government is doing a genocide. Dissent in Israel wants the hostages back, but they don't seem to give a shit about the continuing genocide of the Gazan people.
If you think that these protest have anything to do with stopping the war or stopping the genocide, its yourself who has gaslit you.
Let me get this straight...
Are you really claiming that the entire population of Israel- all 9.5 million people- share exactly the same opinion on Palestine?
Because that would be incredibly fucking bigoted of you, so I want to make sure that's what you're saying.
No, I'm making the point that if there is descent on this issue within Israel I can't find it. I haven't heard it. I'm also not going to project a desire to believe it exists onto a world where I don't have evidence for it. I want to find it. I've looked for it. I can't find it.
All the Jewish led criticism I've found of Israels actions appears to be coming from the diaspora. I can't find sources from within Israel calling the Israeli campaign a genocide or calling for it to stop.
How many people have you actually heard from? Let's say percentagewise- what percentage of the 9.5 million Israelis have you heard from to determine that there is no dissent?
I think you need to address the fact that you've conflated these protests for something they are not before we can proceed, and I continue to treat with you as if you are engaging in good faith.
Can you acknowledge that these protest are not about stopping the genocide of the Palestinian people? That the article is not about stopping genocide? Because you made that conflation previously.
I can acknowledge that many of the protesters are not about stopping that. I cannot acknowledge that there is no one there protesting genocide. I would like to see evidence to that effect. If they are anything like the many anti-war protests I have attended, there is a wide range of opinions amongst the protesters beyond "end the war."
I have not talked to the thousands of people protesting. I do not know what they all think. Or even what most of them think.
Now, please tell me what percentage of the 9.5 million Israelis you have heard from to determine that there is no dissent inside Israel.
You want there to be this different thing that this protest about. I wish it was about that thing too. But when a protestor says "I'm protesting about this thing" my job isn't to tell them they are actually protesting some other thing or that they should be protesting this other thing. My job is to listen to them and believe what they are telling me.
But the protestors are being clear about what they are protesting about. They want the hostages back. They are not talking at all about stopping the genocide.
As far as people I've talked to about this. One is a personal friend, a former IDF soldier and former fellow organizer during BLM 2020. We organized as part of a veterans coalition in support of BLM. Second is my cousins and Uncle (a self described Zionist) who is a very high level organizer on the US side for Israel. He has spent years in Israel although he lives in the US, as have my cousins. I've also spoken with my irl best friend who is from Palestine and with whom I was literally planning a trip to Gaza for not that if not for Oct 7th, who has personally organized Palestinians for peace events in Gaza.
I also listen to and read several prominent Palestinian/ Muslim/ and Jewish voices on the left.
I have asked you a question twice now. You said you would answer it. You did not.
Let's reduce my question to just the people protesting: out of the thousands, what percentage of them have you actually heard from about why they are protesting?
Ok. I think you need a break for the day. I can't treat you as if you are arguing in good faith at this point.
You edited your post after I replied to you in order to answer my question and claim I'm the one not arguing in good faith?
The fact is you have no idea what most of the 9.5 million Israelis think. You just pretend you do. Which is bigoted.
Also, by repeatedly referring to the diaspora, you are also implying that Israelis and Jews are the same thing. Which is also bigoted.
I'm just trying to not be rude, because I think you've lost your own thread and are very confused.
Did you say this or not?
Israeli and Jew are not synonyms. There are more Jews who are American citizens in New York than the entire population of Israel.
If you want to believe this, its on you to show us it. The entire thread obviously knows much more about whats going on in Israel and all we've gotten from you is your projection of how you wish things were.
If this opposition to the Israeli led genocide exists within Israel show us.
Sure, right after I show you how I don't have dual loyalties to America and Israel, right? I have to show people that one all the time.
Of course, a lot of times, they don't believe me anyway.
You are making a claim for the existence of a thing. No one else made that claim. We are asking for evidence of that claim. I've looked for evidence. I am not finding any evidence of a "don't genocide the Gazans" movement within Israel. I can find evidence outside of Israel.
Funny how you left out the whole Jewish diaspora part this time like you said before. Because you absolutely suggested that people like me are Israelis or even have some sort of opinion about Israel that should be weighted higher than any other non-Israeli.
I want to make this absolutely clear to you:
I am a Jew.
I am not an Israeli.
I have no affiliation to Israel.
I have no Israeli relatives.
I have never been and do not plan to go.
I feel absolutely no allegiance or kinship or anything else to Israel and never have.
I was born in Indiana.
I have far more in common with a Palestinian-American born in Omaha than I do a Jewish Israeli born in Tel Aviv.
Therefore: my stance on Israeli genocide is of equal weight to yours.
So stop bringing up non-Israeli Jews as if they are of specific relevance to this issue.
You like, really need to go touch some grass.
You are asking people to support your claim that there is an extant anti-genocide movement within Israel. You've done it repeatedly throughout this entire post.
YOU are making a claim and I'm asking for your evidence.
And I am telling you that I have no reason to give anything to someone who thinks about me and other non-Israeli Jews in such a bigoted way no matter how many times they ask.
Sorry, you lost that when you decided I have dual loyalties.
You are just making up the idea that anything any one here has said is biggoted. Its completely disconnected from reality
I will quote you again:
And I will tell you again: I am not an Israeli. I have no affiliation to Israel. Stop associating me with Israel. It's bigoted. More to the point, it's a lie.
What in the chicken-fired chuckle fuck are you talking about?
I'm asking you to support something you've said with evidence. I'm telling you that I've looked for the thing you claim exists and I can't find it. You have continuously repeated a claim about there being an anti-genocide movement within Israel that requires accounting for. I've looked for this movement in media and within my friends and family in the region. I can't find evidence for it. You claim it exists. Show me your evidence or shut the fuck up.
Once again, I have no interest in backing up my claims to someone being bigoted against me. If someone else wishes to ask me, fine. You have revealed yourself with your comment... and if you wish to claim your comment is not bigoted, please explain my association to Israel.
No one is being bigoted here and all of your whinging is projection.
You are just using that as an excuse to create a narrative you wish existed. And I wish it existed too. I wish there was an anti-genocide movement in Israel. I wish there was an opposition within Israel to work with and organize with. I can't find anyone not-outside of Israel who appears to hold the view that Israel is conducting a genocide and that they need to stop.
The fact is that you just made shit up repeatedly to pretend things were the way you wanted them to be and have continued to proceed in-spite of several other commenters with far, far more knowledge and experience on these matters showing you that you are just talking out of your ass.
Once again, if you are not being bigoted, please explain my association with Israel and/or why you brought up non-Israeli Jews. Because if you aren't being bigoted, I will show you the evidence.
But you are, so I guess you'll have to wait for someone else to ask me for the evidence.
And I do have the evidence. I have a URL ready to go.
Whatever dude. You are a sad fucking troll.
I guess you don't actually want that evidence. Otherwise you would explain what the association between me and other non-Israeli Jews and Israel is to prove you aren't being bigoted.
Like I said- I have that URL all ready to go.
Edit: Of course, I am about to go to bed...
I've reviewed the comment thread. You know other people can rread it too right? So everyone who gets this far knows you are just making this shit up.
We're having this conversation in public kiddo. But maybe it is best you head to bed. You clearly need a break.
See, the problem with you accusing me of making it up is that I literally quoted you. Twice.
I will do it a third time:
Since you won't explain why the association between non-Israeli Jews and Israel is not bigoted, I guess I'll be going to bed without that URL for you.
Again, anyone else is welcome to ask and I'll provide it tomorrow.
Edit: Left out 'Israeli'
👏 you 👏 are 👏 troll 👏 and 👏 lack 👏 basic 👏 reading 👏 comprehension 👏