this post was submitted on 05 Aug 2024
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I was watching "...why Skyrim?" by Razbuten on sloptube this aft and it's so weird that it finally took Starfield for people to realise. Like Fallout 76 wasn't enough, only now are negative things people were first saying about Skyrim in 2012 finally bleeding into mainstream consciousness. It's so wild, like wow they ruined the magic system? The game has worse writing than a PS1 era Mega Man X game??? Skyrim is just shitty Game of Thrones?? Welcome to thirteen years ago!!

Bethesda hasn't made a really good game since 2002, but it'll probably be years before that realisation sinks in.

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[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 31 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (5 children)

Okay it's over everyone, the R*dditors have found the thread here.

Choice cuts:

The "Bethesda hasn't made a really good game since 2002" gives it away as yet another case of sour grapes from a Morrowind stan.

People really do think I'm like, a Morrowind purist, but frankly it was too complex for me at the time, I played Oblivion and Fallout 3 way more. I like Morrowind the best other than NV but I do think F3 and Oblivion are decent games.

We can't just casually enjoy or dislike or criticize something anymore. We have to make sweeping statements that leave zero room for nuance.

NUANCE! CONTEXT! CIVILITY!!! I guess "dogshit" was kinda spicy of me to use, but I really do not like Skyrim at all lol.

Mom says it’s -my- turn to post the controversial take about one of the best selling games of all time in order to garner engagement and make money

knifecat Tell me how to make money from hexbear posting right now! But anybody who thinks this is like a controversial take for clicks, 1) why "karmafarm" on fuckin hexbear, 2) no I actually do think this. I also think Sonic Adventure 2 and Symphony of the Night were catastrophic game design mistakes, fwiw.

Update: oh man I am so not looking at r*ddit comments anymore. "Im not gonna stop enjoying it just cuz some youtuber said so" okay nice! Literally go for it!! R*dditors are fuckin built different.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 18 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Okay, we share the same spicy game takes it seems.

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 16 points 3 months ago (1 children)
[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 17 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Skyrim is boring, every sonic game is trash no exceptions and Symphony of the Night and other metroidy castlevanias have awful level design

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 13 points 3 months ago (1 children)

This is Trans Sonic Megathread slander!

Uh I like several sonic games, soz...

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 9 points 3 months ago

Well, we agree on one of em

[–] buckykat@hexbear.net 9 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I used to think I like metroidvanias but it turns out I actually just like Super Metroid, Metroid Zero Mission, and Metroid Fusion

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 9 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Dread is good. But yeah, they're mostly like a roguelike that was only randomly generated once.

[–] buckykat@hexbear.net 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I really hated Dread. It feels extremely linear with no opportunity for sequence breaking or backtracking. The fact that the EMMI fights are so QTE bullshit that the game gives you autosave points outside of save rooms felt like a tacit admission that they were badly designed. Plus, it kept the dogshit forced melee counters from Samus Returns.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Dread has tons of sequence breaks. Zero Mission is also bad at back tracking chances and Fusion was more linear.

[–] buckykat@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Every single time Dread sent me down one of its little no backtracking sand trap slopes felt like it was spitting directly in my metroid enjoying face.

There's really only one time that Zero Mission locks you out of the whole map, when you get shot down and trapped in the space pirate area. Fusion is very linear on the scale of the whole game but gives you much more free range to explore within each area than Dread.

The melee counters were definitely the worst thing about Dread just like they were the worst thing about Samus Returns though.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I just didn't use em aside from bosses

[–] buckykat@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago

There are tons of regular enemies that can only be hit after being countered. Plus, a bossfight is the second worst possible place for a mandatory QTE other than a cutscene, which Dread also does.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

What do you think of Hollow Knight?

[–] buckykat@hexbear.net 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I haven't played it. It looks like it's primarily melee focused which is a minus for me and I've heard it has a dropping shit on death mechanic which is one of my most hated mechanics in all of gaming.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Yeah, it has a Dark Souls dropping currency mechanic, though personally I generally didn't find it too intrusive since it doesn't have instant death anything (also currency isn't that important). In my experience usually it's dropping on death combined with instant death that make it really oppressive.

[–] Mousy@hexbear.net 8 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I just can't jive with the rpg elements in sotn and it similarly ruined my experience with axiom verge 2

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Sotn has very clumsy and super maximalist rpg elements and doesn't incorporate them into gameplay in useful ways.

[–] Mousy@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Going off of memory since it's been a long time since I've played sotn but I think it doesn't make for meaningful progression in the same way power ups in metroid do. Like with metroid power ups it substantially impacts how one interacts with and traverses with the map in a way that picking up an item with higher stats doesn't. Same problem with something like borderlands or diablo.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Certain things in sotn do like double jump, turning into a bat and turning into fog and stuff, but the vast majority of pickups are number go up at best and inventory clog most often

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Maybe my brain is broken, but at least in AoS I never really interpreted most of the pickups as things that were supposed to be useful, but rather as markers of exploration since the map had exactly one of each item.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 3 points 3 months ago

AoS had a smaller map and better level design. Harmony of Dissonance is closer to sotn map wise

[–] Sephitard9001@hexbear.net 12 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Symphony of the Night were catastrophic game design mistakes

avgn-horror

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 13 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Yeah I wrote an essay (scroll down) about why I hate it to death and it bores me!!

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I find it odd that you don't mention Aria at all. It's the main one of these games I played, so I don't have much of a reference point for the rant.

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Aria of Sorrow at least does Symphony's bit better than Symphony, but still has a lot of the core issues (boring bosses samey areas stupid progression inert enemies etc) it is decent.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I don't want to hold you hostage in a tangential conversation, but I played AoS a long time ago and have been looking for a good metroidvania ever since (with the substantial caveat that I don't really like shooters). The only one* that I have found is Hollow Knight, so I'm also curious how you think that compares.

boring bosses

I'd say like half are boring. Dracula is good, Death is good, the hunter whose name I forget is good, even the final boss is surprisingly good for what it is (which really just means that it's fine). The Skeleton is supposed to be a brainless baby boss, the remaining few I can agree are boring and really shouldn't be.

samey areas

I'd say again that there's a decent amount of distinction in a couple areas, but this is more correct.

stupid progression

??? I'm surprised you didn't complain about dumb drop rates (it really hampers the game), but I don't see why you think progression is stupid. Is it because it's not as multifaceted enough and it feels like keycards? While there are some keycards, I think it's generally okay about this issue, especially with things like the deliberate sequence break by jumping on the back of the bull to get into Arena.

inert enemies

Yeah, this is true. It's not all of them, but it's a pretty big portion of them, though I kind of struggle to imagine how to make them more lively in context unless it's just having them lunge at the player.

Something that I think is interesting is that, at least with how I interpreted what you said, Hollow Knight improves massively on every single issue.

*There's also the Touhou one that I haven't gotten back to because I don't know how to make the audio function, but I played another one by the same dev and it was only okay. Timespinner was also pretty cool, I guess.

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Naw no worries, lesgoooo! I have not played Hollow Knight, I figured that kind of twitch Super Meatboy/Celeste style platforming would gel badly with backtracking.

The Headhunter is such a good boss!!!! Literally the only Koji Igarashi boss that challenges you to use your newfound mobility vs the classic games! Most other bosses are just giant damage sponges, like the ball of human bodies guy. Final boss is decent.

Yeah areas, Igarashi and the gang just like grey way too much. Aria has a drab pallette generally.

Dumb drop rates are really stupid and it's a shame they did not fix it when Circle of the Moon had the same issue, but I did not grind for souls, fuck that. I stuck with the ones that emulate old sub-weapons. Stupid progression is the thing in EVERY one of these games where you get a powerup - sometimes a cool glide or jump ability, sometimes shit like the box pushing in Circle, so keycards I guess - and then you look at the map and wonder which of these twenty dead ends has an obstacle that matches the thing you have, and hit the teleporters. I hate it so much, in Resident Evil for contrast you get the battery and go "Oh! This powers the generator for that outdoor elevator!" because the environment design is actually good.

These games give you way too much mobility and too many attack options as I described, enemies just get styled upon and their only option is either lunge attacks, yeah, or making them huge/damage sponges. These games have nothing as cool as the axe knight hallway in Castlevania 1.

Is Hollow Knight actually good? Is it not a nightmare to backtrack through twitch platforming and difficult combat?

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Stupid progression is the thing in EVERY one of these games where you get a powerup - sometimes a cool glide or jump ability, sometimes shit like the box pushing in Circle, so keycards I guess - and then you look at the map and wonder which of these twenty dead ends has an obstacle that matches the thing you have, and hit the teleporters.

One of the things I hate the most about games that bill themselves as "metroidvanias" is that they do what you describe just as you describe, where the powerups are always 1:1 with the some kind of obstacle blockings some number of paths. That's why I called it "keycards", because it's "blue keycard opens exactly blue doors, red keycard opens exactly red doors" like in boomer shooters. I hate it because, at that point, just have a linear game! By putting it all in a map like this, all you accomplish is padding the game by forcing the player to backtrack over shit they've already been to, or check a bunch of dead ends if they have a poor memory.

In my opinion, the greatest achievement of Hollow Knights game design is that it mostly avoids this. How do better metroidvanias manage to that? Well, here's a specific example from Aria of Sorrow (as I remember it): Have a gap that you can't cross with just a jump, and make it so both a glide and a double jump are separately accessible, so that the player can stumble on either one, then go back and cross the gap without access to the other! It's only a little less contrived, but it feels so much better and gives the player a lot more freedom to actually explore, justifying the jumbled map design.

Hollow Knight is full of progression gates where you can totally do it with multiple powerups, even if it looks at first like only one specific way is possible. It also has a handful of hard requirements, but makes up for that partially with all the different pathing that is possible.

enemies just get styled upon

Can be a good thing, since that's how DMC operates, and Godhand if I can make that reference.

These games have nothing as cool as the axe knight hallway in Castlevania 1.

I kind of didn't realize that people still like Castlevania 1 for reasons other than nostalgia and good sequels. I'll look into it.

Is Hollow Knight actually good?

Yes, it is one of the better video games and easily the best "kind of Aria of Sorrow-like game" I'm aware of after spending years looking, including beating AoS by a country mile (though I like Souls in AoS and Hollow Knight doesn't have quite the same diversity of nonsense).

Is it not a nightmare to backtrack through twitch platforming and difficult combat?

You said twitch platforming a couple of times and compared it to SMB, but I don't really know where you got that idea. Well, I do know, it's from The Path of Pain, an optional area (with no mechanical reward) that tries to push the player's tools to there limits). I don't think I ever did it. Besides that, the required Royal Palace section probably qualifies as "twitch platforming" but it's only one part of the whole game. As someone with "Kirby player"-level platforming skills (read: I'm not good) I found it pretty frustrating, but I still beat it within a few hours. I think I ended up cheesing it slightly because your attack is really OP for dangerous platforming segments.

The combat is really only difficult when you're stuck somewhere, which happens maybe twice in the game with mandatory mob encounters and then with bosses (though you can even escape the first of those, probably as a Dark Souls reference). Therefore it barely factors into backtracking because you can just run away and the enemies generally aren't fast enough to chase you.

On top of all of this, fast travel gets introduced very early (the game is pretty respectful of your time), and they are usually paired with a savepoint nearby. Given all of this, I think backtracking is a non-issue generally and the more difficult thing is boss runs (i.e. when you die, needing to run through the level to get back to the boss, etc.) because some have a save right before, some don't, and some have a save on a branching path that you might have missed. It still isn't too bad because being a coward is OP for exploration, but it's a factor.

Does that cover your concerns?

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I hate it because, at that point, just have a linear game! By putting it all in a map like this, all you accomplish is padding the game by forcing the player to backtrack over shit they've already been to,

Holy fuck you read my mind!!! Just like me fr!!!! I have not played a lotta Metroidvanias but I think only Metroid itself, as far as I've seen, does more organic powerup progression. That's a decent example from Aria, but also am I gonna remember that gap when I get either jump ability? Or is the castle boring and stupid... I do like the idea you describe in Hollow Knight of having experimentation be a factor.

Yeah but when you style upon a guy in Bayonetta or whatever you're pulling off ridiculously complex juggle combos against frequently deadly enemies (the Grace and Glory enemies in Bayo) whereas in a Koji Igarashi game you press B until the enemy falls, or whatever the spirit attack button is. Very lame.

WHAT FUCK YOU JUST INSULTED MY ENTIRE FAMILY LINEAGE, classic Castlevanias are tightly designed, carefully considered games about using a limited moveset to overcome very specific challenges. I talked about it in my Symphony ramble, helps they have superb visual design and banger soundtracks. Holy shit go play Rondo of Blood right now!

Alright, well it sounds like Hollow Knight has some nice design patches over its forebears, Idk if it'd be enjoyable (falling back on teleportation is always lame) but it might be worth trying.

It is definitely cute af -> knight-nod

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

One last thing: I know the teleportation sounds lame, but it mostly isn't. It's not lame like teleportation in DS3 or Bloodborne or Aria is lame. It's relatively sparse and, interestingly, there are actually two interlocking fast travel systems (though one is small) to make pathing more interesting. In my view in substantially fixes that issue we discussed before about all the various dead-ends gated by powers, because the map is huge and it would be a pain to go all the way back to them. Instead, typically you have a teleport that's maybe 3/4 of a zone away from them, so you just need to go some of the way back to them.

Anyway, from what you've said I really think you'd really like Hollow Knight. I'll be sure to check out Rondo of Blood as penance for insulting your family lineage :)

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 3 points 3 months ago

Oh okay, huh. That actually does sound kind of okay honestly.

Ty for holding me hostage in this adjacent thread about viddy games, much appreciated kirby-wave

[–] magi@hexbear.net 10 points 3 months ago

Seven out of 10 isn't bad, goes downhill once the castle inverts. moomin

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 12 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Redditors are so cringe but it's funny watching them flail around and fail at basic reading comprehensionche-laugh

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago

It was sort of my desperate hope that since bearsite is rad, this would not cause (400 replies) or whatever. Alas, gamerdom persists.

[–] Ambii@hexbear.net 10 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Why do we have to do this thing every few years where we decide something people used to like is actually dogshit?

I hate when people say this. Your fave was dogshit from the start fucko, you were just so swept up in the hype that you ignored all criticisms.

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 5 points 3 months ago

Ikr, how dare people change their minds, lmao

[–] barrbaric@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Sonic Adventure 2

I will not hear this disrespect for the game that came attached to Chao Garden.

[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 5 points 3 months ago

Don't get chao garden either. It is fine? I guess I have the wrong kind of autism...