this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2023
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[Outdated, please look at pinned post] Casual Conversation

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Go wave a flag (lemmy.ca)
submitted 1 year ago by NataliePortland@lemmy.ca to c/casualconversation@lemmy.world
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The other day I saw one of those giant lifted trucks spewing black smoke behind two oversized flags. One was the American flag, the other was the ‘blue lives matter’ flag. When I see those trucks I assume that person is a racist and probably supported the attempted coup which almost took away our American democracy- the very thing we built our nation for. This got me thinking about what it means to be a flag-waving patriot.

Wikipedia says patriotism is the feeling of love, devotion, and attachment to one’s country. As a millennial liberal with an electric car I am probably the antithesis of big truck guy but I too am a proud flag-waving American

Frustrated citizens often say things like “I could never love a country that did so-and-so horrible thing”. Many of us would not want to wave a flag because they associate it with those horrors. But “Love of country” is not love of our government or their actions. You would be hard-pressed to find many throughout history who loved all the actions of their leaders. Whether ruled by a king, a Pope, a warlord or a muti-party democracy there will always be faults to find. There will always be room for improvement. Therefore the government must be excluded from the definition of patriotism.

What is our country if not the actions of our government, then? Here’s what it means to me. It means my family, my neighbors, my friends. It means BBQ and Philly cheesesteaks. I love cheering for our athletes in the Olympics. I love hiking in our National Parks. Have you been to Yellowstone? That’s our country! So is Elvis and John Steinbeck and Thomas Edison. If you think that slavery defines America then consider that there were also abolitionists who gave everything to fight it. If you think a mass shooting is what the flag represents then consider those who line up to donate blood in a crisis. Remember the words of the great American Mr. Rogers, “look for the helpers.”

No, the wrongs of our leaders are not what the flag represents to me. I have and will continue to vote in ways to make my country, state, and city better. I will protest injustice and vote with my wallet. I will speak out loud and fight for the laws and government that I believe in. I do that because I love my country. Call it my love language.

Patriotism is the feeling of love, devotion, and attachment to one’s country. You are my country. Even though I do not know you I will always fight to make your life better. I wave the American flag for you. Go wave the flag and let it stand for the goodness we believe in. Don’t let racists take our flag as a symbol of hate.

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[–] bucho@lemmy.one 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It's funny to consider "love of country" to mean "the food, certain people, and beautiful landmarks", while simultaneously condemning the actions of its government, and like half of the citizens who live there.

Not that I'm criticizing, mind. I struggled with this myself for a long time before finally coming to the realization that this country is like a problematic family. You're told that you should love it even if you don't like lots of aspects of it very much. Like an abusive parent.

I'm in my 40s now, and I've finally realized that that's bullshit. I don't love this country. I used to, but I've realized that I only ever loved the idea of this country while the reality has been a profound disappointment.

The barbecue is good, though. So that's nice.

[–] DharmaCurious@startrek.website 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In my early 30s now, and I haven't loved America for several years. 2016 was genuinely eye opening for this former Democrat. Watching the party I had supported since childhood, that I knew as the left most thing going, eat one of its own, absolutely tear itself to pieces to prevent even a semblance of a decent healthcare system... It broke the blinders, y'know? Once that happened it got me looking at things with a more critical eye, and when you do that, when you look at just about any aspect of this country with anything other than Rose white and blue tinted glasses, holy shit. It becomes real hard to love real fast.

[–] bucho@lemmy.one 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah. I was thoroughly disillusioned by what the DNC did to Bernie. Really pissed me off. Still voted for Hillary, though, because her opponent is a literal monster. I hate having to make that kind of choice every 4 years: "vote for the shitty candidate who will do very little, or vote for an actual piece of shit who will do everything in their power to strip all of the progress we've made in the 20th century". It's awful.

[–] DharmaCurious@startrek.website 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I tend to take Noam Chomsky's stand on it. They're is functionally very little difference between the two parties, but because of the republican party's refusal to accept climate change, it makes them the single most dangerous organization in the history of human life on this planet. Couple that with their absolutely shit social policies, their inept economic policies and... Yeah. There's little difference, but it's enough of a difference to keep us slaves to this system.

I'm unfortunate enough to live in a deep red state, so my vote doesn't count in a general election. I voted for Stein, because why not? I hoped she'd get the 5 percent and the green party could get federal funding. If I lived in a state where my vote actually counted in a general, I would have voted for Hillary, because the Republican party is the single most dangerous organization in history.

God this system sucks.

[–] bucho@lemmy.one 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Little difference, except their inept economic policies, and their absolutely shit social policies and refusal to accept climate change...

I don't know, man. Sounds like some pretty fucking big differences to me.

[–] DharmaCurious@startrek.website 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They are functionally owned by the same people, support the same macroeconomic policies. They work together to ensure a continuation of the same system. They are two arms of the same organization. The republican party moves policies to the right, the Democrats come in and move them marginally left, but less so then they were before the Republicans, and the republicans move them righter still. They work together to ratchet economic and social policies further and further rightward. This allows the parties to claim two positions, ensuring a maximum number of devotees, while functionally working towards the same goal. Differences between the parties are largely superficial. There is no real change within the democratic party apparatus. There is some attempts to move the party leftward, but as we saw in 2016, 2020, and just about every day in the house with The Squad, any attempt at moving things to the left of Center Right is treated as some evil that must be stamped out.

[–] bucho@lemmy.one 1 points 1 year ago

Hey - you'll get no argument from me that the Democratic party sucks, or that it's owned by the same lobbyists that own Republicans. That being said, the differences you outlined when saying that there's very little difference are big fucking differences.

[–] match@pawb.social 3 points 1 year ago

Have you ever loved someone but you realized you need to break up because they're on a self-destructive path and staying with them is just enabling it?

[–] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 3 points 1 year ago

The Nation is a collective illusion. While it is a shared illusion, it is not universally shared. We each can speak of the Nation in the same terms, but we each mean and understand something different when we use those terms.

Both those inside and outside the Nation believe they know what the Nation is. To some the Nation is its military, to some its politicians, to some it is a building, or a document, or a place, or a flag, a certain food, a way of speaking, or manner of dress, a line on a map.

In truth, the Nation is none of these things because the Nation does not exist, except in the imagination of those who believe that it does. This does not make the Nation unimportant or meaningless. Even if you (personally) decide that the illusion is delusion, you will still live inside the beliefs of others.

The Nation can only be what we (collectively) make it. What do you believe the Nation is? What do you believe it should be? Will you work to make it what it should be?

[–] Lazylazycat@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

I don't understand patriotism, it's so arbitrary. I didn't choose where I was born. Why would I feel pride for something I just happen to be a part of by chance?

I love the city I live in now, but I don't feel proud to belong here, I just do. It's not an achievement. I also feel like nationalism is divisive when we should be aiming towards unifying as human beings all over the world.

[–] lvxferre@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'll expose my take on this subject. Before that, a few warnings:

  1. I'm not too concerned on [dis]agreeing with the original post; instead I'm speaking what I think, in a disordered rambling.
  2. I'll say things that show clear disdain towards the concept of patriotism, plus towards the idea that you should hold it in high regard. This disdain should not be assumed to apply to the original poster.
  3. I don't pay taxes to the same gov as OP, and I'm not talking about USA, I'm talking in general grounds.

With that out of the way...

For me a country is solely a government that controls a territory and demands taxes from a population. That's it; it's an abstract tool, an "it", and it should be treated as such. And just like it's silly to profess your love for a screwdriver or a hammer, it's also silly to profess your love towards a country = government.

It's a mistake to associate a country with a nation. And this mistake has name: "nationalism".

Most of the people from someone's country are not one's family, neighbours or friends. They're people with barely any relevance in one's life, just like most people paying taxes to other governments. Same deal with the things that they do. It's silly to pretend that one holds strong feelings for them.

And, if the person does hold strong feelings for others (or their cultural output) as long as they pay taxes to the same government as one does, that only represents bubbling and failure to look at the people paying taxes to other governments. ile another is still lit.

Instead I'd rather love, appreciate, hate, show disdain, or ignore individuals. Regardless of country.

I don't feel proud for people of the past. I don't feel shame for them either. I'm not changing this based on which country those dead people paid taxes to.

I know that this will sound rude but I'd rather be honest at the expense of politeness. Every time that I see someone waving a government flag (whichever it might be), I picture a cow shaking its butt, saying "moo! I'm branded! I'm property and I'm proud of that! Gotta show my owner's brand, moooo!". Because while the being in question might not be physical property of that government, it (yup) is certainly its intellectual property, accepting that a tool (a government) tells it what it should think.

At the end of the day, "patriotism" is just an euphemism for nationalism. The people who say "I'm not nationalist! I'm a patriot", in my view, say the same sort of nonsense as someone who said "he is not dead! He just passed away!" or "this is not an dog! This is a Canis familiaris!".

[–] blazera@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Sounds pretty representative to me