A place to discuss positive changes that can make work more equitable, and to vent about current practices. We are NOT against work; we just want the fruits of our labor to be recognized better.
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Our Goals
It’s not as much as it seems…
The wage is only “for time spent traveling to pick up riders, and transporting them to their destination”.
No pay for driving back to the pickup area.
No pay for waiting when there are no fares.
It’s a per-minute wage, and only for certain minutes.
That sounds reasonable and still a massive upgrade for drivers.
If you wait 10 minutes for a fare… give a 20-minute ride to some suburban house… and then drive 20 minutes back to the city…
your pay would be $10.83 (with this new deal).
…that’s very different from $32.50 per hour.
Does an airline baggage-handler only get paid for the “specific minutes” when he is lifting luggage?
Does a cashier only get paid for “specific minutes” when there are customers in her line?
The original goal of this lawsuit was to classify drivers as employees under state law…
And that goal was ignored completely.
Does an airline baggage-handler only get paid for the “specific minutes” when he is lifting luggage?
What's actually tragic is similar things like this do happen in the air industry
Flight attendants for example are often paid only for hours on the plane. All the time getting to the planes through security screenings doesn't count. All the work they do at the gate before and after doesn't count. It's only hours in the plane.
Don't give them any ideas. If they could pay luggage people only during times lifting luggage they would. They just don't know how to yet
But why wouldn't you try and pick up a fare before driving 20 minutes back to the city?
I mean in Denver going from the airport or across the city is 20-40 minutes airport can be an hour at times and I live in the city
I'm not arguing that this is a good deal or met whatever goal. I'm just saying it's an upgrade. Also, as a former uber driver, there are strategies to make the best use of your time. If this new wage applied to my location I would buy a car and make a killing. That said, I'm in the minority that prefers to run their own business rather than be an employee so if I have to be a wage slave again then no thanks.
Okay...
Give me the math of how this new wage would help you “make a killing”.
Keep in mind that this wage merely sets a floor for the specific-minutes when you have a fare.
(And brother - driving for uber is not "running your own business"... it's being maximally-exploited by a business... with no liability-protection, no security, and almost zero rights.)
Both can be true! There's a reason I quit that shit years ago.
I’m waiting for the math... Support your claim that you would “make a killing”.
I don’t see how you would...
The most you could possibly make would be $32.50 in an hour... (and that’s ONLY if you had a fare for ALL 60 minutes of an hour... and somehow still made less than $32.50 from those fares).
...And you'd be driving your own car and burning gas for that whole hour...
So show me (with math) how you’d be “making a killing”.
No. I'm not wasting any more time with you. Watch the videos if you want.
What you're talking about is "waiting to be engaged" versus "engaged to wait."
The drivers are not on set schedules and have no obligation to the company except for the time between accepting a fare and dropping them off. If the drivers were required to return to a staging area and wait for a call the they'd need compensation. But they're not. They can do whatever they want at that point.
When I worked retail I wasn't paid for the time between my shift's end and the next one beginning, but that's what you're arguing for in this case.
They can do whatever they want at that point.
What else do you imagine they're doing, though?
I mean, Uber has constructed a model where "waiting for your next fare" and "going home to your partner" look the same in a spreadsheet, and that then becomes the justification for not paying them. It's sleight of hand.
The central feature of their business IS having drivers WAITING when a ride is requested.
So yes - it would be fair if they included some “waiting time” for each ride (maybe up to 15 minutes of actual waiting time).
These apps ONLY have value if there are drivers WAITING when a ride is requested, so drivers should be paid for that.
My Dad used to be a hot-shot delivery driver.
He didn't sit around waiting for a job. He'd go about his business and when his phone pinged he'd decide in the moment if he wanted to do the job.
Sometimes we'd be watching TV and his phone would ping and he'd get up to leave. Sometimes he wasn't interested and he'd let someone else get it.
The issue with Uber, Lyft, etc isn't that they treat their drivers as contractors. People who have they option of when, where, and whether to work and are paid per task aren't employees. The problem is the pay is terrible for what they're doing.
That's pretty typical, honestly. When working regular jobs, I've been paid one way, and not paid for time not working. The term is "waiting to engage", versus "engaged to wait". That is, if they want me to sit around to be available at a moment's notice, they pay me for that time. If I can go off and do other stuff and be vaguely available with whatever delay, then I don't get paid, because I'm not working and I'm not losing any of my own time.
I don't really think Uber should pay for time back directly, but they should definitely increase the cost of longer runs, especially to lower-volume areas where the driver might not have a fare in the other direction. (The driver is also not required to take any particular fare at all, so if they feel they'd lose money on it, they shouldn't take it.)
Honestly, you could make a strong argument that drivers are indeed independent contractors under US labor law. However, if the court has found that they should qualify for more pay and benefits, I'm certainly not going to argue that it should be taken away. In fact I'm going to celebrate it.
Aka Uber and Lift no longer available in Mass.
Nothing of value lost
As someone who lives here and doesn't drive, services like this are extremely valuable to me
I get that, but they deserve to be paid a livable wage like everyone else.
I agree and I'm happy to pay more. I just hope this doesn't go away.
You guys need public transportation.
My wife recently reconnected with a friend from college (20+ years ago) who is legally blind & living in MA. And I recently worked with a MA resident that is legally handicapped. Both of them have, through some state service, access to some number of free Uber rides each month. I know in the Boston area there is/was a state run car service for the handicapped, but using Uber apparently provides much more coverage & flexibility.
As long as the Uber drivers are being paid appropriately for this service I see it as a great service for the handicapped. I’d hate to see them lose it…
That service is called "The Ride", and I've heard it's terrible. Drivers can show up hours late or not at all.
I have no sympothy for Uber and Lyft.
I used to work for an old school traditional taxi service. Back in 2003-2007. Back before these services took over. I had a personal issue with my employer, and so I left that company. I knew everything there was to know about the office side of taxi dispatching. I was going to find something else for the moment (which happened to be a laundromat attendent, as well as a hotel front desk manager), but in a different comany, run by different people, I could have become office manager of a taxi business.
Then uber and lyft came in.
They set their fares at unreasonably cheap rates. They made no profit for the first 8 years. They made the customers get used to the idea of fares being so low, just to drive the other traditional companies out of business. But here's the thing. They were bleeding money, that they made up for with other investments. A taxi company is in no other investing business. So it worked. All the other taxi companies in my area went out of business. Except for the one I used to work at, because they secured private contracts with the airport and schools. Other than that one company, 8 other taxi companies died.
Then, when everybody else was dead, Uber and Lyft raised rates DRASTICALLY in our area. We have a small suburb in Cleveland, named Lakewood. It's basically the shape of a rectangle. About 4 miles east to west, and 2 miles north to south. You could go anywhere in Lakewood, for $4.50 when I worked for the Taxi company. It's generally about 10 minutes one side to the other unless traffic backs up. I've seen those fares are now $12.75 before tip, and the drivers only really make money from the tips. There are 2 main roads in lakewood, both going east to west. Detroit is the more main of the roads, it has the number 26 bus that runs it's entire length. The other main road is Madison. The number 25 bus runs it's full length as well. You can either get an all day pass for 5 dollars, which gives you unlimited rides on any bus throughout the entire Cleveland bus system (RTA), or you can pay $2.50 per ride. No matter which bus you take, anywhere else in Lakewood is a short walk from where you got off at your stop. Less then a 2 minute walk I'd say. Even walking north to south, Detroit to Madison is a 5 minute walk. So you could even take the wrong bus, get off paralell to where you'd get off on the other bus, and still only walk 7-10 minutes.
So you can see how this would scale when you apply it to all of north east ohio. That same $5 bus pass will take you about 40 miles one end of RTA to the other. Our old taxi rates would have been in the neighborhood of $40-60. Depending on point A and point B's distance. Uber I've heard will charge $200 for that same distance. When they first came to town, they were charging $10. Just to drive taxi's out of business.
When I worked at the taxi company, you knew the drivers. It really felt like a TV show some days. You knew what certain people were going to do, what certain people were going to say, before they even walked through the door. During the bar rush (busiest time of the week for taxi's), they'd collectively fight the other taxi's trying to steal our orders, however if the customer called BOTH companies, BOTH companies would collectively leave his ass on the curb for intentionally wasting one of the drivers time. There wasn't full unity between competing companies drivers, but there was an understanding that they work together on some things. A taxi driver knew the city. A taxi driver knew the events. A taxi driver got a sense of who the passengers were by reading body language before they even said a word, and was prepared for trouble before it came.
These Uber/Lyft drivers are none of that.
"Take me to (insert the most well known street in your city)" "Ok, where is that?"
or "I'm going to (insert really well known concert venue)" "Yeah, I'm going to need an address".
I don't know if this is still true, but when I was working as dispatch, I would hear about how in London you couldn't even work at a taxi company, driver or dispatcher unless you passed a test of the local street knowledge, and local landmarks. You needed to know where every street in the city was, within 45 seconds of being asked, or you fail. I always thought that was pretty neat. Knowledgeable professional drivers.
Now you get into these Ubers, and the guy is like "Yo, bro, ya mind if I vape???". Zero knowledge of the city. Most of them only doing it one day a week. Despite having a preset price, they take the most random longest routes, because they rely on GPS.
So Uber and Lyft have tried to basically manipulate the system for an outcome that benefits their own corporate interests only. They don't give a shit about the drivers. The drivers don't even know each other. There's no sense of unity or pride like we had. It's all lowest common denominator bullshit, except for the price gouging, 90% of which goes straight to corporate.
So now the customer pays far more, to get a lesser quality driver, and the ride will take longer because the driver doesn't know what they're doing, and the drivers aren't getting compensated enough to make this an actual job.
I have no sympathy for Uber/Lyft.
Thank you for sharing that.
What happened to all the taxi medallions? I am wondering if they can make a return since Uber/Lyft are now price gouging beyond what was ever paid for a taxi.
If you have a job providing transportation, then you are on-call, whether you're transporting customers or not. And you should be paid for BEING on-call. This is a standard practice in several industries.
Eh, it's not quite the same as other professions. If a sysadmin gets an after hours call, they must work it. If a ride share person is offered a fare, they can accept it or turn it down.
I think this will reflect badly on ubers driver performance score if you turn down to many short or inconvenient trips...
Possibly, but it doesn't have anything to do with being on-call.
Well now they can stop pretending they're not employees and actually treat them like employees.
That’s a fair bit of money, I’m impressed.
As someone who did uber and lyft, let me tell you that these algorithm are exceptionally fine tuned to meet $/hr over long term driving. In my area, it is tuned to hit close to 20/hr ± 4 dollars/hr. You bet that on some trips uber is taking larger percentage vs other trips to meet this target. This is clearly how their system works to squeeze every dollar out of both drivers and clients.
Note: this is with OR without doing promotions and specials.
Those algorithms will try their best to get you out of profitable areas and stick you with low pay rides once you pass this 20/hr threshold. Especially if you are doing promotions, as they know that you will more than likely meet this target $/hr mark.
Damn that's a lot