this post was submitted on 25 Mar 2024
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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/17147012

"Sometimes people use “respect” to mean “treating someone like a person” and sometimes they use “respect” to mean “treating someone like an authority”

and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say “if you won’t respect me I won’t respect you” and they mean “if you won’t treat me like an authority I won’t treat you like a person”

and they think they’re being fair but they aren’t, and it’s not okay."

-a 15yo autistic girl experiencing ABA therapy

Source

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[–] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 64 points 7 months ago (4 children)

This is only vaguely related, but I remember reading that anti-authoritarianism is a trait of autism. I'm an autistic anarchist, so seeing the crosspost community is fun

[–] BestBouclettes@jlai.lu 21 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, I understand hierarchy but it's only a title, you're just a person like everyone else so fucking chill

[–] HottieAutie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 22 points 7 months ago

I can understand hierarchy in systems, roles, and responsibilities. I cannot understand hierarchies in social settings. It's not even values-related or a choice. I just don't have the mental capacity to even see it.

[–] savvywolf@pawb.social 16 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I've been wondering for a while now whether loyalty to a group of people is a trait that is more commonly found in non-autistic people. Would explain so much.

[–] Boomkop3@reddthat.com 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

From personal experience I've noticed that autistic people tend to be more loyal. But less so to caregivers who don't care, which is too often the case

[–] savvywolf@pawb.social 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, I more meant that if they were a caregiver themselves then they would more likely call out bad caregivers, rather than just silently accept it because they don't want to make waves.

[–] Boomkop3@reddthat.com 2 points 7 months ago

I don't know how much that is a stronger drive to do things right, and how much that because it might be reminding some of how we were treated.

Either way you are absolutely right

[–] LwL@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

There was a blogpost posted to here a while ago that looked into that and seemed to find it true. The whole tone of it felt a bit masturbatory but it was still an interesting read, I'll see if I can find it

Edit: I failed to find it but anyway, it's probably the case.

[–] SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works 12 points 7 months ago (1 children)

My bet is that this is often the result of receiving more mistreatment than usual, or from simply being less likely to adhere to the already established social hierarchies because the social hierarchy just rejects you, which turn (pretty reasonable) attitudes that later become rationalised as anti-authoritarianism.

[–] LwL@lemmy.world 16 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Pretty sure it's more than that. The entire concept of just obeying someone "because they're the authority" is incomprehensible to me. Give me a reason and if it makes sense I'll do it. Otherwise if I don't agree with it I don't see why I should.

[–] _cyb3rfunk_@lemmy.world 9 points 7 months ago (1 children)

To me it depends on the context. In a new job, I take a humble stance and repeat to myself:

  • I don't know the full context
  • I don't know who is smart and and who isn't
  • I have my own biases

And I just work according to instructions assuming the higher up's have a roughly good idea what they are doing.

After a few months, you can start understanding the broader context and spot some mistakes. Then you can start making suggestions.

[–] LwL@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago

Yea, if I don't know the full context then I can just accept it unless I think it's completely stupid, and then I'll just ask. Getting the explanation also helps with understanding the processes better.

I think I most commonly notice this when it's a movie theme, where some character is struggling with disobeying a person of authority that doesn't actually hold significant power over them and is just an authority because of social hierarchy. It wouldn't even cross my mind to obey them if I didn't want to do what they're asking, and all I can think is "why are you doing this".

[–] Murdoc@sh.itjust.works 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I don't know if this has anything do to with autism either, but what you said fits the pattern for me in pretty much most of my life. For example, if a doctor gives me a prescription and tells me to take it every day, I often find it hard to keep up the habit unless I learn exactly how the drug works. Not because I don't believe them, but more because by understanding the mechanism, of being able to see the steps of cause and effect for myself, it becomes more "real". Like my brain more easily can see why if I want result B I must do action A. Although thinking about this is probably more relevant to long-term medications, not something like a pain killer or cough syrup, where the cause and effect are more obvious. (I hope that makes sense; I really should be in bed right now.)

[–] LwL@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago

Needing explanations/understanding to be willing to do things is a pretty common pattern in autistic people afaik. Doesn't have to be autism, but it's an autistic trait. If someone refuses to provide an explanation if I ask (provided there's not some reason I shouldn't know) I just get irritated and probably won't do it out of spite.

[–] r3df0x@7.62x54r.ru 1 points 7 months ago

I wonder how much of that is a reaction to not understanding rules. Since transitioning, my sister has gone into the "everyone needs to submit to God" category.

Of course, God could be the only authority and every other authority is an idol.

[–] Ekybio@lemmy.world 43 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

I put ABA in wikipedia an scrolled to the critique section.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_behavior_analysis

Not fun to read. Really not. I also looked for the cited study that reproduce these findings.

Apparently ABA has the chance to traumatise a person, induce exploitable behaviour and induce selftdestructive thoughtpatterns.

Despite that, apparetly some individuals profit from ABA.

Here is the link to the study cited in wikipedia: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13623613221118216

Edit: Linked Wikipedia

[–] EmptySlime@lemmy.blahaj.zone 18 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Yep, like anything with the goal of changing behaviors it all comes down to what behaviors you're targeting, why you're targeting them, and how you're planning to discourage the targeted behavior and enforce the desired replacement.

It's great if you're trying to change behaviors that cause the autistic person distress and interfere with them living a fulfilling and happy life, but horrible if you're aim is to just enforce blind conformity for the sake of it.

My wife is autistic as are at least 2 of our 3 kids, with the third awaiting his own evaluation. She studied ABA in college because when you tell a woman with autism and severe OCD that actually a lot of human behavior is ordered and explainable if you understand the underlying reasons the behaviors exist she tends to jump on it to explain all of the "stupid social bullshit" she's had to deal with all her life.

[–] savvywolf@pawb.social 19 points 7 months ago

Even if there are behaviours which the autistic person wants to have fixed, aba is a bad way about going around it.

It (and conversation therapy, which is based on the same idea) are based on an outdated theory that everything is a "behaviour" and can be cured by forming habits. That is, you can cure autistic traits with practice and repetition in the same way that you can force yourself to walk every day to make that a habit.

That's not the case; they aren't behaviours that can be "trained away". The "cure" should be working with the person to find effective coping strategies.

Imagine you had a broken leg, and rather than getting it put into a cast, they instead forced you to walk for a mile a day on because "not being able to walk interferes with your ability to live a fulfilling and happy life".

[–] gofsckyourself@lemmy.world 14 points 7 months ago

Thanks for the warning and info.

I'm gonna go give myself some ABBA therapy after looking at that.

[–] groucho@lemmy.sdf.org 38 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Authority is a privilege and a responsibility, not a virtue or a right. If you are in a place of authority your life should be harder, not full of fawning sycophants that give you an ego boost.

[–] TommySalami@lemmy.world 24 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I never thought "With great power comes great responsibility" would be a lasting principle in my life, but hell if it isn't. I don't have a ton of "authority", but what I have I see as a responsibility to and for the people I delegate to, rather than the step up that some appear to view it as. Thanks, Uncle Ben.

[–] JustZ@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago
[–] 1stTime4MeInMCU@mander.xyz 18 points 7 months ago (2 children)

This is great, I think there could be a version that inverts the condition. Something like “if you won’t respect me as a person I can’t respect you as an authority”

[–] SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works 4 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Even so, that still sounds like a very low bar to respect someone as an authority.

[–] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 6 points 7 months ago

It isn't the only condition, just one of them

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 2 points 7 months ago

You could actually print this somewhere.

[–] Boomkop3@reddthat.com 17 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I'm autistic and dealt with the same behaviour. I eventually just made sure to let everyone around them know about the behaviour. Turns out even people who consider themselves an authority quickly become very nice when their peers know about their behaviour. Even better, when the world outside their org knows

[–] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Yeah I've lost jobs because "authority" figures wanted me to treat them like they're special and better than everyone else and I'm like "I'll continue to give you the respect you deserve until you start deserving more."

[–] Boomkop3@reddthat.com 3 points 7 months ago

Such a place probably wasn't good for you anyways

[–] Globeparasite@lemmy.world 15 points 7 months ago

experiencing ABA therapy

ah man made horror beyond my comprehension, perfect

[–] sleen@lemmy.zip 5 points 7 months ago

I agree with that.

[–] SternburgExport@feddit.de 2 points 7 months ago

Could not have said that better myself.