Ask Lemmy

It’s a waste of time. These types of people are as thick as mince, you’re not gonna change their mind because they have zero interest or incentive to do so. It’s a fucking cult of morons.

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It’s stupid because:

• Women are not some single homogenous group. Every woman is a unique person, just like men are.
• Everyone by default deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, including women.
• Being an asshole doesn’t make you more likable.
• Instead of trying to hack your way into a relationship, have you tried actually dating someone?

If you care about the people you're talking to, belittling their entire viewpoint dismissively without countering their arguments. Is not going to win them over. In fact it might hurt their relationship with you.

If you have the time and inclination, take the argument they have that you have an issue with, and break it down to its fundamental points. It's a good exercise for both of you. Work through what things mean at a fundamental level to both of you and find what the core disagreement is. Is it philosophical, is it structural, is it traditional, there's many facets of an argument that people can latch on to. Having them explain why to you and then why the why etc can be helpful for both you and them to come to if not a common understanding but a mutual respect for positions.

But this is time intensive, and if we're just talking about randos on the internet it's not worth your time.

The first step to changing someone's mind is acknowledging that you probably won't be able to. The other commenters are right, the red pill is stupid, it's annoying to argue with them, and you'll probably fail the delicate act of ideological conversion. Still want to give it a shot? Great!

Depending on how deep down the rabbit hole they are, the answer is it could either be impossible or it's a long term dedicated effort. First you should learn a bit about cult deprogramming techniques, as while the red pill isn't really a cult it is an echo chamber ie. a mostly comprehensive view of the world that has built in answers that insulate from external dissent. The red pill tends to provide community, some degree of lifestyle improvement, and a feeling of secret insights into society / the world, and it's very rare an individual will give those things up for the sake of something as abstract as logical consistency.

You need to slowly provide alternatives to whatever positives the red pill provides, which while annoying is possible because the red pill sucks. The online sense of community is tenuous at best, so be their friend and connect them to other friends that'll entirely replace that aspect. Additionally, the lifestyle improvement aspect is rather generic and can come from anywhere. Ask them what specific red pill people they follow and provide a gym / motivation YouTuber that better provides whatever motivation the red pill gives.

The final element is the feeling of insight into the world that the red pill gives. This one is ironically the least important to changing someone's mind and the most difficult, as in order to successfully provide alternatives you likely need to understand the red pill ideology better than they do. Nothing a red pill person says should stump you, you should have heard it beforehand and researched it and thought of better counter arguments. If they mention hypergamy, you should have annecdotal, theoretical, and statistical answers ready to go. You should know their ideology well so you can make annoying jokes about how ridiculous it is when applied to real life.

If you do these things, over enough time and done diplomatically enough so they don't leave you for a friend that doesn't annoy them, you can probably depeogram a red pill person.

One of the Wachowskis mocking it.

Life is too short to argue with idiots. Ignore them let them wallow in their stupidity.

You don't. See the first (introduction) video from the Alt-Right Playbook. Basically, there is a real risk that even if you "win" the argument, the red-pill derp just gets angry and takes it out on a convenient female target. The energy is better spent finding ways to counter red-pill ideology that don't involve engaging directly with these people.

Look into 'Street Epistemology': https://streetepistemology.com/

It's not an easy thing to employ in the moment. A lot of 'red pill' types actually try to employ this method, unfortunately for them they do it very clumsily and are often visibly just JAQing off ("Just asking questions, bro"). But, when this technique is used to genuinely understand and break down someone's position (instead of a cult conversion / 'argument winner' tool), it's quite effective.

you just described all the conversations i had with my ex. blah blah blah "you know i think desantis has some good points"

"NO HE DOES NOT DONT SAY THAT" cue argument about what hes actually doing and that one policy that only kind of makes sense doesnt make desantis anything anyone should be listening to

no its about the kids not trans erasure. MAYBE FOR YOU ITS ABOUT KIDS OR SMTH but for the majority of the conservatives its about trans erasure WHICH IS NOT A GOOD THING.

don't even get me started on fucking covid vaccines. "this study says.. myocarditis, autism, mrna blah blah" "which study" "they exist theres data" "ok i believe you show me these studies" "well i cant find the studies now i feel stupid gets upset but doesnt think shes wrong still"

once she brought me a "study" and the results said "THE DATA IS INCONCLUSIVE AND FURTHERS PROVES THE BENEFITS OUTWEIGHT THE NEGATIVES" and im like i dont know what to tell you this wasnt the study you think it is.

i don't get how people can just be wrong and proven wrong over and over but still think theyre right. her parents shove right wing propaganda down her throat sadly.

I'm starting to think that the correct way to address these types of things is with a simple, possibly even loving, "that's the dumbest thing I've heard".

A lot of poorly reasoned opinions and ideas come from socially validated sources, they parrot the opinions of people they identify with. Showing that you won't agree to get along, might work as a counter both to their spewing the shit as well as maybe letting them question why they hold that belief.

Might also make them stop coming to you with these types of opinions, which may or may not be what you want.

I’m afraid to ask… what is “red pill mentality”?

Ask them to define concepts instead of using catchwords

You don't. That person is lost.

Ask them if they think their mom is also that way. If they say yes, then you know you can't change their mind, and drop the subject.

You can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

Fascists and other Frauds tell the Little Man that he is a loser; that he is being ripped off by the Bad People; that his whole class or gender or race are being taken advantage of by their inferiors. They play to the Little Man's anxieties, making him feel littler and more stepped-upon.

This is all a lead-in to telling the Little Man to sign up for the Big Lie.

There’s a quote variously attributed to a bunch of people that’s along the lines of “you can’t reason someone out of a corner they didn’t reason themselves into” — not to say your friends didn’t necessarily come by a faulty logic to get themselves there; rather that there’s some innate values that were interpellated by the rhetoric of the so-called redpill, and you’re unfortunately seeing an aspect of them that was always there but perhaps in different forms. It’s not worth your time to argue with them, and sadly, may not be worth your time to be in that environment either.

IMHO, it's not only stupid but completely unnecessary as well.

You can argue with a pigeon, you can tell it you are right and it is wrong, you can use logical arguments and sound evidence, but you won't change its mind and at the end of the day you'll still end up with shit in your hair.

You have to pull the reverse red pill card, to red pilled them out of being red pilled. It takes a next level pillmaster to achieve this and I’m not sure it’s ever even been done on record.

Ask them what they hope to win. You can sit there and make endless arguments to defend your view that half of humanity is awful. Until eventually everyone just gives up arguing. Now what? There is a next day. The victim mentality is not even self-serving. At most it lets you know how badly your life went, but far more often it skews your view of the events and gives you nothing to work with moving forward except a desire to hurt others.

Tell them they won and ask them what they want to do next.