Pleroma calls their equivalent of "All" the "Known Network" instead, which does a better job explaining what will show up there in my opinion.
this post was submitted on 07 Aug 2023
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totally understand the frustration, and i’m not going to try and invalidate it!
… however, it’s definitely not a problem with a simple solution
since anyone can start an instance, when you search “all”, where should it search? i don’t mean generally like “all the instances”, i mean where specifically? things like lemmy.world, lemmy.ml, kbin.social, etc are obvious… but what about lemmy.mydomainforfriends.social (not real but let’s pretend someone created their own little instance for friends there!)?
let’s say you say yes that should be searched, okay… how does your instance know it’s there? does it tell all other instances that it exists at some point? where does IT get that list from? (the current solution to this is that your instance starts to “know about” an instance after someone interacts with it, but this has the problem you’ve described)
let’s say that instance shouldn’t be searched… now, what are the rules (automatic id assume; not with human intervention) that would allow an instance to be added to some big list somewhere? also where is that list? now we’re back at problem 1: how do you store a federated list of servers?
the problem gets even harder when you consider mastodon, pixelfed, peertube, etc… all these services interact: should all include them? only certain things in them?
While it has problems of its own, instances could pool and share that knowledge. The first time an instance talks to a different insta ce it could just ask "hey, what other instances are you aware of?". The main issue there is just instances obsessively sending exponentially growing lists of instances back and forth.
But no, that is the main bane of federated social media, discoverability without a center of truth
yup! 100% agree! federation is kind of a new thing and we have some issues to work out that’s for sure!
heck, i could even see some kind of federated search service: activitypub instances could submit their content for indexing and individual instance could choose an existing, or run their own federated fediverse search… importantly, there would need to be choice for each individual instance with no centralised repository
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It's a massive usability issue and a massive content discovery issue, imo.
For lemmy users who got lucky and had their first lemmy experience on a top 5 instance where a lot of popular off-instance communities are already subscribed to, then users would see a huge list of both local and foreign communities. For users who got unlucky and had their first lemmy experience on a small instance, their view of "all" looks like a ghost town.
Part of the problem is semantical. If they are going to call it "all" then it should really be all (all lemmy communities available on all federated instances). If it isn't going to actually show everything, then they should call it something else that indicates it's only local communities plus whatever local users are subscribed to.
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What does 'All' mean to you?
In this context it means all posts which are stored on the server you are on. And only things are stored which people subscribed to. It does not mean "‘all’ servers".
There are good reasons why the protocol has been designed like that, if you're interested then you can find out about it. If not, reddit still exists for people who like it more.
All means all. If it isn’t actually All (it isn’t) then it should be called something else.
But it is all, just not the all you think, it's all things the server is aware of, not all things in the universe.
This is not obvious to anyone who doesn't have some understanding of how networking and federation work, which is most people. Especially if we're talking about users who have only ever experienced centralized platforms.
It should be called "Known Network" or something more transparent that doesn't require an explanation of indexing
I agree. But the attitude of those users just ribbs me the wrong way.
It's an understandable response. They were previously in a position where this was such an obvious concept that it didn't merit any thought, and now they are required to have an understanding of networking and federation in order to understand how well actually this a fundamental part of how distributed systems work and isn't technically a bug.
From their perspective this seems like a fairly straightforward problem. Obviously (to us) it's not, but the threshold for the fediverse shouldn't be that you deeply understand federation if there's ever going to be meaningful adoption.
As an aside, your personal domain is timing out.
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So All does not show posts from all instances federated with your instance, but only posts from all communities subscribed to by people in your instance?
Correct.
Source: On my one person instance All = Subscribed
The word "all" fundamentally means everything? By calling it "all" they are really doing a disservice to everyone who, gasp, assumes "all" means "all" when it really means "local communities and local user foreign subscriptions". I don't know what they should call it, but redefining the words "all" to be "not all" is super confusing, especially for users new to lemmy.
'All' to me means """all""" the servers my instance can connect to that contain that string.
It's a very simple concept.
Resource wise, it makes sense to only retrieve content the users of the instance are interested in. Think about all the nsfw communities popping on lemmynsfw and pornlemmy, as well as all the content in languages your users don't speak.
Some instances are multilingual, so you don't want to defederate from them (and defederation shouldn't really be used in this context anyway), but retrieving 50% of content none of your users is ever going to read seems like a waste.
Yeah. And I'm interested in retrieving all of the servers my instance is connected to that contain a string in that community name.
Why is this so hard to get across to you?
Why don't you have a solution for how server members find communities on different servers in the first place? Are you really defending relying on third-party services and 'other means' to find communities on different servers?
I think that's really bad design and a testament to why the fediverse is inaccessible to the general public.
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Just bringing this to everyone's awareness, the issues is already tracked here: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/2951
From the Lemmy devs
I think the lemmy-ui's could very much benefit from a "global community discovery service" like https://browse.feddit.de , but integrated into the front ends. I'd of course prefer that each lemmy back-end do their own crawling of communities and instances, to make it as distributed as possible.
Thank you for sharing this!
You are welcome!
Someone will implement it.
The protocol itself is decentralized. Which is good.
If a app wants to use a central service to search thats a option available to them.
Userbase don’t care about how the tech works under the hood - user base sees no content and goes back to Reddit.
The original poster asked why.
I was answering why
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Thanks for the heads up.
I'm not exactly sure what features are up to the admins and which are standard. If there's a server that implements this and mine doesn't, I can definitely see myself switching.
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The simple explanation is your instance doesn’t “know” what’s out there. lemmy.world doesn’t know when lemmy.ml adds a community, and it doesn’t know when hypothetical.server pops up as a new instance. There’s not really a good way of knowing that without having a central repository, which defeats the purpose of a centralized platform.
One thing you can do is use Lemmy Explorer to search for communities on other instances and subscribe to them. This will fill up All for everyone on your instance.
Looks to me like lemmy explorer could just be sourced for results fairly easy. Even if it was just added as an additional source to the default listings. Similar to setting up yum repos etcetera. Is there a good reason this isn’t a thing? I know my use and exposure to communities is severely limited by the current cluster fuck of finding communities. I just don’t care enough to go further than searching in the app and closing out if nothing shows up. I realize my laziness contributes to my user experience but saying an instance doesn’t know what’s out there and then providing a site that will let me search for what’s out there doesn’t seem logical.
You could always write something and submit a merge request:
Based on my reading of the other comments here their is a huge push against this type of functionality from folks that understand the service better than I do. I doubt any contributions from an outside perspective would be at all welcomed.
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Omg I didn't know this! Though I did wonder why my "all" feed seemed to empty.
TIL. That explains why I couldn't find some things.
Forgive what is probably a silly naive question...
Can someone point me to an explanation of the federated architecture of lemmy? I haven't found one yet that has helped me build a good mental model. I either get a step-by-step startup guide, or discussions on the merrits/demerits of a distributed system.
I think I've pieced together that it's basically independent "instances" of the machine each with their own communities within. Sort of like if there were multiple instances of reddit, each with its own r/aww or whatever. I don't yet understand, however how these interact/relate/ovelap/collaborate...which I think is the basis for this thread.
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There really should be a link to this on every instance/communities page with a note that if users really want to see "all" communities, they must use a 3rd party search tool to do it.
I added this to every community I mod with my alts, not that much but it's something to increase the visibility of the search engine
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