this post was submitted on 23 Jun 2023
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Should the Fediverse welcome its new surveillance-capitalism overlords? Opinions differ! (infosec.exchange)
submitted 1 year ago by thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange to c/fediverse@lemmy.ml
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Should the Fediverse welcome its new surveillance-capitalism overlords? Opinions differ!

https://privacy.thenexus.today/should-the-fediverse-welcome-surveillance-capitalism/

Contents:

- Two views of the fediverse
- The case for "Trust but verify"
- Wait a second. Why should anybody trust Facebook, Instagram, or Meta?
- Why the Anti-Meta FediPact is good strategy
- We're here, we're queer, fuck Facebook
- A few words about digital colonialism
- Now's a good time for instance admins to discuss with their communities
- In chaos there is opportunity!

@fediverse@lemmy.ml @fediverse@kbin.social #fediverse #Meta #FediPact

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[–] Kwakigra@beehaw.org 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"We need to make room for misinformation on our platforms otherwise we won't have mass appeal. A lot of people love to scapegoat populations who can't effectively defend themselves, and leaving them out just because they're contributing to creeping fascism and and multiple ongoing genocides is just petty."

I will never participate in an instance which is federated with Meta or any other profit-driven instance. If profit is more important than responsibility and safety, then irresponsibility and danger can be the only consequence.

[–] Chimaera@mastodon.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@Kwakigra @thenexusofprivacy other than existing in a walled-off server how can you stop them? There will inevitably be contact from second and third hand interactions, no?

[–] Kwakigra@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

I live around it. I know plenty of people who aren't all the way in the deep end but could eventually go all the way into the deep end. What really helps them not make that final leap is that there is an extremely well deserved stigma against Nazi ideology, the most notorious strain of fascism. There is a gradient and there are plenty of secondary believers whose minds are primed to support a strongman on the elimination of all the bad people keeping society down but would use nicer words to describe it, but tertiary believers who have just been immersed in a deluge of contradictory information can be reasoned with. On this instance at least there is not a lot of tolerance for appeals to popular prejudices which may work out in a general crowd where there isn't a sufficient challenge to it.

[–] MyOpinion@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

All will be joining the fediverse so we need to give our selves the moderation tools we need to manage this.

[–] jdp23@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

@MyOpinion Totally agree, there's some discussion at the end of the article on the need to improve moderation tools. Specifically for kbin and lemmy, I also talked about this in the Invest in moderation tools section of Don't tell people "it's easy"

@fediverse @fediverse @thenexusofprivacy

[–] Kryostar@mastodon.online 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

@thenexusofprivacy @fediverse@lemmy.ml @fediverse@kbin.social Meta and all its products are pretty much everything that the fediverse is not.

The fediverse :
- does not make money off of its users
- does not exploit its users
- does not discriminate
- does not tolerate hate, violence or abuse.
- does not moderate immorally

We are not aligned with Meta and their predatory practices. Therefore I think it's completely valid and critical to defederate them.

#Meta #FediPact

[–] ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.com 1 points 1 year ago

@Kryostar @thenexusofprivacy @fediverse Is meta trying to make inroads into the fediverse? Please let me know so I can stomp down hard on that shit.

[–] sibrosan@mastodon.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@Kryostar @thenexusofprivacy @fediverse@lemmy.ml @fediverse@kbin.social

If you're not on a Meta instance, then let users on such an instance care about themselves.

If your instance is affected by discrimination, hate, violence, abuse, immoral moderation due to how another instance is run, then that instance can be defederated soon enough, just like now. No need to do that pre-emptively because an instance is run by Meta or by whomever.

[–] thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@sibrosan Or, if an instance that's about to launch has a long history of discrimination, hate, violance, abuse, and contributions to genocide, you can announce your intention to defederate from them even before they launch.

Like I said in the post, opinions differ!

@Kryostar @fediverse@lemmy.ml @fediverse@kbin.social

[–] sibrosan@mastodon.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@thenexusofprivacy @Kryostar @fediverse@lemmy.ml @fediverse@kbin.social

"you can announce your intention to defederate from them even before they launch."

I would want my instance to abide by its stated server rules, without exceptions either way. That may mean defederation of an instance if it doesn't ensure my instance's users are protected from transgressions by its users, but not defederation because of an expectation it won't. In case it proves necessary, defederation can be effected quickly enough.

[–] thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@sibrosan Like I say, opinions differ.

Why do you think so many trans and queer people -- who are very likely to be directly impacted by transgressions of the rules -- come to a different conclusion and advocate preemptively blocking?

See the "We're here, we're queer" section of https://privacy.thenexus.today/should-the-fediverse-welcome-surveillance-capitalism/#were-here-were-queer for more on that perspective.

@Kryostar @fediverse@lemmy.ml @fediverse@kbin.social

[–] sibrosan@mastodon.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@thenexusofprivacy @Kryostar @fediverse@lemmy.ml @fediverse@kbin.social

"Like I say, opinions differ"

Apparently. I prefer unbiased application of the server rules my instance advertises, as I based my decision to join it on those.

Other Mastodon users may prefer a certain bias, that's all right too.

[–] thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@sibrosan The server rules on your server explicitly prohibit transphobia.

So why do you see enforcing the rules by not federating with another server that's got a long history of transphobia as "bias"?

@Kryostar @fediverse@lemmy.ml @fediverse@kbin.social

[–] sibrosan@mastodon.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@thenexusofprivacy @Kryostar @fediverse@lemmy.ml @fediverse@kbin.social

> So why do you see enforcing the rules by not federating with another server that's got a long history of transphobia as "bias" <

IMO the rules should be enforced when they get broken, not preemptively due to an expectation they would.

No Meta server exists that uses ActivityPub, so if they set up one, it won't have a "long history of transphobia".

And when that server turns out to not behave, it can be defederated quickly enough.

[–] Chimaera@mastodon.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

@thenexusofprivacy @fediverse@lemmy.ml @fediverse@kbin.social I can’t see how anyone can stop Meta. They will do what they want with their *tens of millions* of insta accounts that will immediately take over. Other than existing in a walled-off server I can’t see what can be done to stop them.

[–] thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange 7 points 1 year ago

@Chimaera We can't stop Meta from doing what they want with the millions of Insta accounts, and we can't stop instances who want to work with Meta from working with Meta. We can however have a Meta-free region of the fediverse, and it's very likely to be better in a lot of ways than the Meta-friendly region.

@fediverse@lemmy.ml @fediverse@kbin.social

[–] woelkchen@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

their tens of millions of insta accounts that will immediately take over.

Take over what? Just because Lemmy and Mastodon both use the ActivityPub protocol, doesn't mean that those two work the same. It's not like Instagram posts will just show up in Lemmy communities. Yes, I'm aware that Lemmy and Mastodon can interact but you have to look up the post or person to interact with.

[–] Dick_Justice@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I have to wonder how the people that are okay with this would feel if u/Spez announced that he was starting a lemmy instance to federate "his" content.

[–] woelkchen@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I have to wonder how the people that are okay with this would feel if u/Spez announced that he was starting a lemmy instance to federate “his” content.

Considering that this would literally mean a 180° turn in the API issue, that would be welcome.

[–] vamp07@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

I welcome META.  The whole point of having a federation is to allow others to join. It’s up to you as a user, or the host of your instance to decide if they connect to those servers, I would stay away from an instance that did not want to include them, or at least let me as a user connect to them

[–] thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

"Should the Fediverse welcome its new surveillance-capitalism overlords? Opinions differ!" ⬆️
has links to perspectives from @vantablack @Seirdy @fancysandwiches @alice @viennawriter @oblomov @mcp @fosstodon @darnell @PoliticaConC @tchambers @deadsuperhero @ianbetteridge @dangillmor @smallpatatas @gcrkrause and more ... like I say, opinions differ, but no matter where you are on it, I appreciate the time everybody's put into articulating their positions.

Thanks also @cendawanita @jo @edendestroyer @ophiocephalic @oliphant @admin1 and @damon for the feedback and discussions!

BTW in the last section when I'm discussing Mastodon's moderation issues, one of the things I mention is the lack of an ability to control who can reply to tweets ... so apologies in advance if this generates a bunch of notifications! I left the acknowedgments out of the main post to try to limit the damage, we'll see how well it works.

https://infosec.exchange/@thenexusofprivacy/110594384248698967

[–] nev@bananachips.club 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

⬆️ a really good and thorough post covering meta meta, if you missed anything

[–] jdp23@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

@nev Thanks!

[–] darnell@darnell.moe 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange @vantablack@beach.city @Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net @fancysandwiches@urbanists.social @alice@lgbtqia.space @viennawriter@literatur.social @oblomov@sociale.network @mcp@lgbtqia.space @fosstodon@fosstodon.org @darnell@one.darnell.one @PoliticaConC@social.politicaconciencia.org @tchambers@indieweb.social @deadsuperhero@social.treehouse.systems @ianbetteridge@writing.exchange @dangillmor@mastodon.social @smallpatatas@mstdn.patatas.ca @gcrkrause@lediver.se @cendawanita@mefi.social @jo@blahaj.zone @edendestroyer@social.chinwag.org @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @oliphant@oliphant.social @admin1@aoir.social @damon@calckey.social Great analysis! I am probably in the weird/odd camp who realizes that Meta embracing ActivityPub is a threat but also an opportunity.

Also, from what I read Threads (assuming Facebook calls it that) will be decentralized, as in other companies will be able to install the software upon their own servers. The only requirement is an Instagram login account (I do not think the software will be open source).

This is one of the reasons why blocking will be futile in the long run. It’s why I believe engaging with people on Threads & convincing them to join the greater Fediverse is a better long term strategy.

👉🏾 https://darnell.day/dear-fediverse-fediblocking-facebook-is-futile

I plan on using this opportunity to convince many of my friends & family to consider options like Misskey & Pixelfed (Mastodon too, but some have tried that & were not happy—I will reintroduce Mastodon to them again).

I believe the reason most large instances will not block is that their community will not be thrilled that they can not communicate with their relatives on Threads. Most people have great relations with their family & many in the Fediverse (myself included) are on big social platforms because our friends & family are on there.

But in the end we will have to wait & see when Instagram launches Threads.

#Instagram #Facebook #Meta #Threads #Misskey #Mastodon #Fediverse #Pixelfed

[–] fancysandwiches@urbanists.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@darnell @darnell@one.darnell.one @oliphant @Seirdy @dangillmor @tchambers @deadsuperhero @oblomov @jo @vantablack @alice @viennawriter @admin1 @cendawanita @fosstodon @damon @gcrkrause @ianbetteridge @ophiocephalic @smallpatatas @thenexusofprivacy @mcp @PoliticaConC @edendestroyer

Where did you read that the software would be installable by 3rd parties? I've not seen that rumor anywhere. It wouldn't be their first open source project, for sure, but I don't think they've ever open sourced a whole app.

[–] thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thanks @darnell , glad you like the analysis! I also think it's an opportunity as well as a threat, and I agree that right now it looks like most large instances won't block, and most of all I agree that we'll have to wait and see what happens!

@fancysandwiches when Darnell and I discussed this before he pointed to some things they've said that certainly might imply that -- although also might not (which is back to the wait and see). It's certainly true that somebody like Oprah would have an IT department capable of running it and would see the advantages of being able to do that. But we don't really know,
all they've said is "decentralized".

[–] darnell@darnell.moe 2 points 1 year ago

@thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange @fancysandwiches@urbanists.social I believe the reason Threads (or whatever Meta decides to call it) by Instagram will be decentralized is to appeal to political figures & celebrities whose tech team would prefer to have the code run “in house” for obvious reasons.

Facebook however is still maintaining control by requiring an Instagram login which will serve two purposes:

☝🏾 It will create a standard for verification globally, which will make Instagram the de facto standard for online verification (a scary thought!)

✌🏾 It will allow Meta to enter the online transactions realm, as they will use the verification angle of individuals, companies, merchants, etcetera, as a “trust factor” when doing business.

Another benefit of Threads being decentralized is it gives Meta the opportunity to do what Twitter attempted to do: become the pulse of the planet.

One thing I did notice is that Threads will work with ActivityPub & be decentralized, but it will not be open source. It will be proprietary software & if successful we will probably see numerous companies adopt ActivityPub as the new subscription standard, the way RSS was promoted years ago.

[–] jeena@jemmy.jeena.net 1 points 1 year ago

I really don't get why if you want to communicate with people on facebook and instagram you need to do it from the fediverse, why don't you do it on Facebook and Instagram already today?

[–] Chocrates@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Why do we care if Meta and other's use the fediverse? Just more content for us and we can block them if they don't play nice?

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