It's a reasonable discussion, but in practical terms I don't know if it's worth differentiating between cats trespassing on property and cats being allowed out at all. It's completely impossible for a cat owner to control where their cat roams if they are allowed outside at all. Maybe we need to think about whether cats should be allowed out, but it seems like that's how the debate should be framed, not like this.

Also, even if all owners kept their cats inside, there is still a massive feral population. Getting that under control will take a lot of time and money.

[–] cloventt@lemmy.nz 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm in the keep cats indoors camp. Cats live longer, healthier, happier lives if they're kept indoors. We expect other animals to be kept confined to their owner's property (dogs, cows, sheep, lizards, birds, etc) so I don't see why that expectation should not extend to cats.

Given the enormous damage they do to our native ecosystem I think it makes sense. Feral cats are a pest and currently eradication efforts are hampered because we have to take measures we aren't indiscriminately killing pet cats along with the feral ones. If all pet cats could be expected to remain under owner's control, then the options for eradicating the pests go up a lot.

First step though is to require cats to be micro-chipped and registered, just like dogs are.

[–] livus@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Cats live longer, healthier, happier lives if they’re kept indoors

Isn't that an American stat, based on conditions like coyotes and snow?

[–] Ozymati@lemmy.nz 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Cars, aggressive dogs, fights with other cats, humans who hate cats, toxic garden plants....

[–] livus@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

None of that produces anything like the American stats though (which tend to say lifespan for indoor cats is 15 and outdoor cats is 3 years).

By contrast, most vets I have talked to put the average lifespan for all pet cats in Aotearoa at around 15, and this tallies with my experience.

The majority of cats in NZ are "indoor/outdoor". We have one of the highest cat ownership rates at about 40% of households.

I myself have owned cats that lived into their 20s.

I think cars and dogs are likely to affect stats a little, but I've never run into any trouble with toxic plants or criminals!

[–] Ozymati@lemmy.nz 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Still, cat's safer indoors or only outdoors daytime. I see lost cat posts more often than I'd like to.

[–] livus@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

Definitely. Vets especially recommend keeping them in at night, because that's when most of the fighting takes place.

[–] SamC@lemmy.nz 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

First step though is to require cats to be micro-chipped and registered, just like dogs are.

Definitely agree with that, there's no reason every pet cat shouldn't be mircochipped (and most desexed).

I agree the research definitely says cats are better off indoors overall, especially if they also have a catio. I'm not sure whether older cats can easily be transitioned to indoor life. Our cat has a curfew which she adapted to quite easily, but I think if we made her 100% indoors, she would not do well. A catio might help, but wouldn't be the most practical at our place and would be expensive to build.

[–] Koof_on_the_Roof@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Our cat was born in a barn and is definitely an outdoor cat. We kept her in as a kitten when we first got her and she definitely went a bit stir crazy. I think it would be cruel to keep her indoors all the time.

Before we had a cat certainly the neighbourhood cats could be annoying but we befriended a few. Humans certainly have a huge sense of entitlement when it comes to ownship of the world and I think it is starting to bite us in the ass.

[–] evhan@lemmy.foldling.org 7 points 1 year ago

Humans certainly have a huge sense of entitlement when it comes to ownship of the world and I think it is starting to bite us in the ass.

Except in this case they're only here because of humans, which in my opinion makes them -- and managing their impact on the ecosystem -- our responsibility. It's not really entitlement to want to do that.

[–] Dave@lemmy.nz 8 points 1 year ago

It’s completely impossible for a cat owner to control where their cat roams if they are allowed outside at all.

I dunno, a house on my street has some inward sloping wires along the top of their fences. It looks inexpensive and seems to do the job of letting the cat roam their backyard.

I don't really know where I stand, but if dog owners have to have a fence capable of keeping their dog in, I don't see this as being impossible for cat owners - it just needs to be a cat fence.

[–] RegalPotoo@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

the right to roam – effectively, to trespass

These are not the same thing.

[–] Koof_on_the_Roof@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Trespass is quite an emotive term and not really appropriate for animals. While they are territorial they have no understanding of human property boundaries.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

We do though. I wouldn't want people's dogs to shit in my garden and don't want people's cat's doing it.

[–] ashley@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Well, cats are individuals in the same way birds, or squirrels are individuals.

Now, I live in Canada, and this discussion doesn’t exist so I don’t know the problems people have been having to constitute a discussion like this, but personally I think if you don’t want cats in your yard, you can put a fence up. Like you do with raccoons, or bears.

[–] gibberish_driftwood@lemmy.nz 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

In the NZ context it's a wider part of the pest control discussion. NZ never had native land mammals (except a species of bat) until fewer than 1000 years ago, and everything's changed radically since colonisation from Europe began around 200+ years ago. We have lots of native flora and fauna that's in a downward spiral, being eaten or hunted or starved towards extinction. There's never been stability during that period, especially due to particular introduced species (rats, possums, mustelids) that destroy them.

Cats are also a big part of that dynamic, particularly feral, but it's a complicated discussion because so many people have grown up and still have them as pets. At the same time as there are efforts to reintroduce native flora and fauna to populated areas, the presence of cats is a contradiction, particularly when the law allows them to roam in ways that sometimes result in them being many kms from home.

The "I don't want cats on my property" line is often an extension of the belief that cat owners simply shouldn't be allowed to let them leave their own property in the first place. That isn't unprecedented, even near here. Across the Tasman in Australia there are lots of local jurisdictions which require cat owners to keep cats indoors or in proper enclosures. There are counter arguments, though, along the lines of "I keep my cat indoors at night" and "my cat never hunts any of that stuff".

[–] ashley@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

Ah. I see, that seems like a long discussion

[–] HIMISOCOOL@lemmy.nz 5 points 1 year ago

Idk how common outdoor cats are for you guys but that wouldn't work unless it's damn good wall with a clearance every side

[–] Albatr0ss@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I love cats. But I also love birds, so our two kitties are indoor-only cats and they're happy as. They have company, warmth, food on demand, and are much safer. Just yesterday I saw a cat that had been hit by a car, and it was quite a horrible sight. I hope it didn't suffer long. Its injuries were very, very unpleasant to see.

I don't really care about the main reason noted in the article (visiting cats and poop), for me it's more about protecting birdlife, and the safety of the cats themselves. I'd fully support a curfew for cats, like some states in Aus have. And mandatory microchipping and desexing.

[–] chrizbie@lemmy.nz 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Our 7 year old cat had to be moved entirely indoors when we bought an apartment and she.adapted to it a lot easier than we expected, naturally we had to buy her some toys and towers and toilets and things but she's doing fine.

That said I don't think it would be fair to just throw every cat indoors as not all owners and cats would be ready for that, microchilping and registration should be mandatory but it also needs to be affordable otherwise some just won't do it and it would be impossible to police

[–] eagleeyedtiger@lemmy.nz 1 points 1 year ago

We had a kitten a long time ago that we kept indoors for a few years, but then she escaped once and that was it, she wouldn't stay indoors anymore. She lives with my in-laws now, but hardly stays in the house. Only coming back to eat every day.

[–] SargTeaPot@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

I think we should end birds rights to trespass tbh