this post was submitted on 18 Jan 2024

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Countries that let anyone in? (lemmy.ml)

submitted 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) by ULS@lemmy.ml to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world

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Are there any (livable 🥺) countries that basically allow anyone to become a citizen? Specifically where an English speaker could get by.

Edit: by allowing anyone I mean poor people with no skills.

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[–] tal@lemmy.today 61 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

Well, "liveable" is going to be somewhat-subjective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_border

Examples of open borders

Svalbard

Uniquely, the Norwegian special territory of Svalbard is an entirely visa-free zone. No person requires a visa or residence permit and anyone may live and work in Svalbard indefinitely, regardless of citizenship. The Svalbard Treaty grants treaty nationals equal right of abode as Norwegian nationals. So far, non-treaty nationals have been admitted visa-free as well. "Regulations concerning rejection and expulsion from Svalbard" are in force on a non-discriminatory basis. Grounds for exclusion include lack of means of support, and violation of laws or regulations.[52][53][54] Same-day visa-free transit at Oslo Airport is possible when travelling on non-stop flights to Svalbard.

That's not citizenship, but it's living and working there without restriction, which is probably about as good as someone's going to get in the present day. But it's probably colder than most people would like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard

Approximately 60% of the archipelago is covered with glaciers, and the islands feature many mountains and fjords. The archipelago has an Arctic climate, although with significantly higher temperatures than other areas at the same latitude. The flora has adapted to take advantage of the long period of midnight sun to compensate for the polar night. Many seabirds use Svalbard as a breeding ground, and it is home to polar bears, reindeer, the Arctic fox, and certain marine mammals. Seven national parks and 23 nature-reserves cover two-thirds of the archipelago, protecting the largely untouched fragile environment.

EDIT: And income looks pretty solid, even by Western standards:

In 2006, the average income for economically active people was 494,700 kroner, 23% higher than on the mainland.

Converting to 2006 USD and then rolling forward inflation to December 2023, that'd be ~$110,463.54/year.

But part of the reason that they're gonna be paying that is because the people living there are gonna have to be living in polar twilight for a hefty chunk of the year.

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 33 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Most remote areas also have a lot higher cost of living since most things need to be shipped into the extreme environment.

[–] tal@lemmy.today 13 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

That's a good point. I know that in the US, pretty much everything costs more in Hawaii. Though...hmm. I'd bet that a big chunk of that might be the Jones Act, which requires any shipping from a US port to a US port without intermediate stops abroad to be done on a US-flagged ship with American crewmen, which is quite expensive. Net result, as I understand it, is that a lot of shipping between US destinations will do an intermediate stop at a port abroad. That works for, say, the Caribbean. But there isn't any non-US territory anywhere near Hawaii, so a shipper won't be able to readily use that approach.

googles

Yeah, it sounds like it's a factor and a bit of a touchy point for Hawaii.

https://www.grassrootinstitute.org/jonesact/

The 1920 Jones Act requires that all cargo transported between U.S. ports be on ships that are U.S. flagged, built and mostly owned and crewed by Americans. It is well known that the act adds to Hawaii’s high cost of living...

So I dunno if it'd be as bad for Svalbard.

Also, Svalbard's gonna be cold -- even if it's warmer than places at a similar latitude, it's still in the Arctic -- so heating costs will be higher there than most other places that people live.

[–] aturtlesdream@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I follow a youtuber who lives there, and Svalbard is really pricey. Food and anything else consumer goods wise as anything has to be flown in or paid to ship via freight ship. Also, housing is extremely limited, and it's hard to find without a job already secured, which may or may not be easy to get depending on who is looking

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[–] wesker@lemmy.sdf.org 23 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Yeah but do they have highspeed internet?

[–] tal@lemmy.today 19 points 10 months ago

When it isn't being cut, they have submarine cables to Norway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Undersea_Cable_System

The Svalbard Undersea Cable System is a twin submarine communications cable which connects Svalbard to the mainland of Norway. The two optical fiber cable consist of two segments, from Harstad to Breivika in Andøy, and from Breivika to Hotellneset near Longyearbyen in Svalbard. The segments from Harstad to Breivika are 74 and 61 kilometers (46 and 38 mi) long, respectively, and the segments from Breivika to Hotellneset 1,375 and 1,339 kilometers (854 and 832 mi). Each consists of eight fiber pairs and there are twenty optical communications repeaters on each segment. Each segment has a speed of 10 gigabits per second (Gb/s), with a future potential capacity of 2,500 Gbit/s. The system is now the sole telecommunications link to the archipelago.

There's apparently 5G service:

https://www.lifeinnorway.net/5g-norway/

The company began Scandinavia's first 5G pilot back in November 2018, conducted Norway's first 5G video call, and launched the world's northernmost 5G pilot in Svalbard. Telenor chose Nordic company Ericsson over Chinese firm Huawei to supply the critical infrastructure for the rollout.

I don't know whether Starlink orbital paths can cover that far north.

googles

Apparently so, and they started service about five months ago.

https://satprnews.com/2023/07/09/starlink-launches-in-svalbard-a-new-era-of-internet-connectivity-in-the-arctic/

Starlink Launches in Svalbard: A New Era of Internet Connectivity in the Arctic.

[–] tal@lemmy.today 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Hmm. Though that being said, global warming will cause glaciers to retreat, so it'll probably be more-ice-free in the future than it is now.

googles

And it looks like Svalbard, in particular, is warming up quickly.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63387233

Experts from the Norwegian Polar Institute are among those who calculate it is heating six times faster than the global average.

The consensus is that the temperature in Svalbard has jumped 4C in the past 50 years.

[–] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Well, everything is terrible when you subject it to the realities of our modern world. Just turn off that part of your mind for a few moments and enjoy the idea.

[–] tal@lemmy.today 5 points 10 months ago

everything is terrible

I'd guess that warming is probably long-term advantageous in terms of human habitation of Svalbard. We're not really glacier-dwelling critters. Probably sucks if you're a polar bear, but...

[–] tal@lemmy.today 9 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Also, in general, if you have legal residence long-term in a country, most countries do permit a route to obtain citizenship. Norway does appear to do this too (though it's not a guaranteed right, and you need to learn Norwegian as part of that process). Thing is, I don't know whether legal residence in Svalbard -- which is a Norwegian territory, but not part of Norway proper -- counts as legal residence in Norway for naturalization purposes, and I could very much believe that that is not the case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_nationality_law

Foreigners may become Norwegian nationals by application after residing in the country for at least seven of the previous ten years, while holding a work or residence permit valid for at least one year. Applicants must be at least 12 years old, demonstrate proficiency in the Norwegian or Sami language (or alternatively complete 300 hours of Norwegian language courses), intend to reside in Norway permanently, pass a good character requirement, and not have a criminal record.[11]

Thinking of an analog, I know that in the US, American Samoa is unusual in that while it is a US territory, American Samoa wanted to run their own immigration policy (because there are people in (non-American) Samoa who they wanted to be able to move in). Both the US and American Samoa were willing for American Samoa to be a US territory, but the US wasn't willing to have American Samoa just be a back door to general entry to the US if they had different immigration policy. Normally, in an American territory -- like Puerto Rico, say -- the residents are American citizens. However, because of this independent immigration policy that American Samoa runs, based on the arrangement that the US and American Samoa worked out, American Samoans are not actually American citizens -- they are American nationals. While generally they can live and work in the rest of the US, just the fact that American Samoa is okay with someone moving to American Samoa and has the right to let people in as they choose doesn't necessarily mean that the same person can use that status to just bounce from there to legal status in the rest of the US.

It wouldn't surprise me if Norway has similar restrictions on people bouncing via legal residence in Svalbard to broader Norway, because the situations are somewhat-similar.

EDIT: Yup.

https://www.lifeinnorway.net/living-on-svalbard/

It's also important to understand that time spent living in Svalbard does not count towards residence in Norway. That means that if you've lived in Svalbard for two years, those two years will not count towards a permanent residence application in Norway.

[–] athos77@kbin.social 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Iirc, if you die there, your body has to be evacuated to somewhere else.

[–] tal@lemmy.today 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

googles

Apparently, they don't let people be buried there anymore, because it's all permafrost, so the bodies don't decay. This says that they sometimes permit people to be cremated and have their ashes kept in the graveyard there.

https://www.iflscience.com/it-is-against-the-law-to-die-in-this-town-for-very-good-reason-46724

The notion it's illegal to die in Longyearbyen may have first started when it was discovered that in 1950 bodies within the town's cemetery were not decomposing due to the permafrost. As a result, it was believed deadly viruses within the bodies could be kept alive and possibly re-infect the living population as the permafrost thawed.

It sounds like a nightmare scenario, but it's one that has already played out elsewhere. In August 2016, there was an anthrax outbreak in northern Siberia, with one boy being killed and around 90 others hospitalized. Furthermore, 2,300 reindeer died from the disease.

The most recent outbreak prior to this took place in 1941. The 2016 outbreak occurred during a heatwave in the region, leading officials to conclude that a reindeer killed by anthrax had thawed out, causing the virus to be released into the environment.

In 1950, officials in Longyearbyen were worried that a similar thing could happen with bacteria and viruses hiding in the residents of their graveyard.

Recently, samples of the Spanish Influenza were found in the lungs of victims of the disease that had been preserved in the permafrost of Alaska, stored there since 1918. Traces were also found in Longyearbyen itself, from a person who died during the 1917 outbreak.

Though it's unlikely that bodies in Longyearbyen thawing out would cause an outbreak of Spanish Flu, a team of scientists studying the virus in 1998 took extra precautions just in case. While extracting samples from the graves, they wore modified spacesuits and ensured that the tissue did not thaw out before it reached a specialized facility in the US.

"Potential viruses from the bodies that died during the Spanish flu is not a worry in Longyearbyen," Carlsen told IFLScience. The results of those scientific studies can be read about here.

"It is not illegal to die on Svalbard, that happens from time to time, but as a main rule you cannot be buried here. However, in some special cases and for people who have a special connection or history to Longyearbyen, you can be buried in an urn at the cemetery."

[–] deafboy@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I plan to visit Svalbard. Avoiding the spanish flu was missing from my checklist, though. I guess no digging up unmarked graves for me... :D

[–] tal@lemmy.today 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

They don't say it, but reading further, apparently there are polar bears up there that have sporadically attacked humans. If you leave town, you apparently normally go armed:

https://www.sysselmesteren.no/en/weapon/

Firearms

Due to the polar bear threat on Svalbard, anyone travelling outside the settlements must be equipped with suitable means of scaring off polar bears. The office of the Governor of Svalbard also recommends carrying firearms with you. The processing time for all types of firearms applications is up to 4 weeks.

Given that, my guess is that another factor might be that Svalbard's polar bears might be interested in digging up non-cremated human corpses.

[–] imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Well, I now know more about Svalbard than I thought possible, just from reading this whole thread. Thank you for your service 😅

[–] aturtlesdream@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

If you are really interested, Cecelia Blomdhal (spelling may be slightly off) is a youtuber who lives there and shares all kinds of interesting stuff and gorgeous scenery. You can visit without having to brave the cold and polar bears that way

[–] tal@lemmy.today 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

searches

https://www.youtube.com/@CeciliaBlomdahl

skims

I'm not really into her style, but she does have a lot of footage of the landscapes and the kinds of buildings they have and stuff.

I'm kind of surprised that her house has so much glass in it -- I kind of expected houses in the Arctic to have a lot of thick wall -- but I guess if you get fancy-enough windows, you can probably get decent insulation.

googles

https://glawindows.com/triple-pane-window-r-value/

With double pane windows, you get an R-value of 2 – 4.1. Meanwhile, with triple pane windows, the R-value is from 3.2 and up to 5.5 with 1 Low-E pane. With 2 Low-E panes, it can improve up to an 8.7 with argon gas filled units and up to a 9.9 with Krypton filled ones.

It looks like new exterior walls in the colder parts of the US use R10 insulation (in addition to the siding itself and drywall, which I'd guess doesn't contribute much):

https://www.energystar.gov/saveathome/seal_insulate/identify_problems_you_want_fix/diy_checks_inspections/insulation_r_values

Insulated 2x4 wood-frame wall:

For Zones 4–8: Add R10 insulative wall sheathing beneath the new siding.

...so in theory, if you have really high-end triple-glazed, exotic-gas-filled windows, they can insulate about as well as a wall.

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[–] Chickenstalker@lemmy.world 24 points 10 months ago (1 children)

If you're American, you should keep your nationality. Instead, apply for work visa and later, permanent residency at your host country. Reason being, the American citizenship makes the local government think twice about sending you to the gulag etc plus you could seek refuge at a US Embassy anywhere around the world. If you migrate to Aus or NZ, they don't particularly care that you have two citizenships, so you can become a citizen there but secretly don't tell the US gov. Bear in mind, you have to pay US taxes as a citizen even if abroad.

Regarding a country to move to, try Japan and become an "English Teacher". Japanese schools regularly take in native English speakers not so much as English teachers, but more of a cultural exchange teacher. There's a very low qualifications requirements but be aware that you will be assigned to some school in bumfuck nowhere rice fields. Go search for vids on youtube about this topic.

[–] bitwaba@lemmy.world 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The US is one of a hand full of countries that require you to pay income tax on money earned abroad. If you are a US citizen that has moved to another country and received citizenship there, and you aren't worried about having "the local government send you to the gulag", then renouncing your US citizenship is probably the best financial decision you can make. Caveat: they make you pay up front when renouncing for all of the potential tax they would have earned from you had you stayed a citizen abroad for the rest of your life.

[–] Bondrewd@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

What the fuck. So lets say, if the country to move to has a minimum income, then you will have to pay the tax for atleast the minimum income until retirement? Am I getting this right?

[–] bitwaba@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

Yes, but its not as aggressive as it seems: 1) the US gives a tax-free amount up to ~$100,000 earned abroad, and 2) that's after deducting the tax you paid to the country you earned it in (as an example, say you earned $100,000 abroad and paid 30% tax, you'd only have to report $70,000, and because that 70k is below the tax-free amount (in the $100k neighborhood), you don't owe any additional tax in the US.

HOWEVER, the tax-free break is only given if you file your taxes. If the IRS decides you need to be audited, and you didn't file (because you live in a different country and think it's absurd to have to file taxes to a country you didn't earn that money in), you lose the tax free amount (which basically means you can be double taxed).

[–] shinigamiookamiryuu@lemm.ee 22 points 10 months ago

The decision to let anyone in is typically a move a country makes because it's going through population decline. Think Iceland, South Africa, Sicily, Pitcairn... the last of these would be the most rewarding.

Very seldomly does a good country just let anyone in, not just because it doesn't want to be so generous but also because it doesn't want to be exploited by people who realize that a good country is letting anyone pass.

[–] weeeeum@lemmy.world 19 points 10 months ago (4 children)

I know that Georgia is very lenient on maximum stay, 364 days a year and any day outside of the country the days are reset. You're essentially a citizen that has to take mandatory annual vacations.

Tblisi is pretty well developed from what I have heard and it's a very safe and peaceful place (ignoring 2008 >:( ). It's still pretty poor compared to developed countries, so despite that human development is decent, you won't be able to afford as many foreign products (especially tech).

[–] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

They did a road trip through Georgia on The Grand Tour and it looks like a really gorgeous country

[–] NegativeLookBehind@kbin.social 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Top Gear fan?

[–] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

So much so that if I was given enough money I would rebuild the test track complete with weird 747 in the background.

[–] NegativeLookBehind@kbin.social 3 points 10 months ago

Nice! I’m a huge fan of “old” TG, and the Grand Tour.

[–] Devi@kbin.social 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

A friend did this, not in Georgia, but basically once every so often she had to do a day trip out of the country, then visa was reset. She lived there for like 5 years?

[–] HootinNHollerin@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

It’s called a visa run

[–] DessertStorms@kbin.social 4 points 10 months ago

They're also being eyed up by Russia, which is worth keeping in mind..

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[–] scytale@lemm.ee 18 points 10 months ago

Try southeast asia. Lower cost of living and can get by with english. As others have said, you can’t just go apply for citizenship. You’ll have to become a permanent resident first, and you need to work and live there for a while to do that.

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Just finding a job elsewhere in your own country might be a better option, plenty of smaller towns with cheap rents and businesses looking to hire...

[–] Apock@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

As someone who grew up in and still has family in a small town (5-10k pop) - Things may be cheaper but no one's paying livable wages even for these small towns.

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 months ago

Depends where you live and if there's a minimum of labor laws. With the minimum wage around here I could easily afford a one bedroom apartment in the town I live in and I probably wouldn't have any reason to work minimum wage since there's an industrial sector in the town with businesses looking for staff. 7k in population, so services available including an hospital...

[–] kersploosh@sh.itjust.works 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Usually you have to be a resident for a number of years before being eligible for citizenship. Often the process is faster and easier if you meet minimum income or wealth thresholds, because countries like hosting rich expats.

https://immigrantinvest.com/blog/easy-residency-countries-en/

https://www.escapeartist.com/blog/6-countries-easy-get-residency-visa/

[–] ULS@lemmy.ml 10 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Yeah that's the problem. I'm a broken loser.

[–] NegativeLookBehind@kbin.social 10 points 10 months ago

Are you ok? Sounds like you’re in a rough spot.

[–] Nei@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago

Finding a job in your own country will be a far more better, easier and comfortable option, please consider doing that.

[–] SubArcticTundra@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Wait, are you in this situation right now? (Could this be the next Lemmy No Poop Challenge!?)

[–] LaVacaMariposa@mander.xyz 6 points 10 months ago

Why are you against learning the language of the place where you want to go? Immigrating is hard, and it's even harder if you're in a new place by yourself and can't even speak the local language. You're going to struggle a lot that way.

[–] cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca 6 points 10 months ago

Poor people. Isn't that like 95% of the population these days? 😭

[–] otherbarry@lemmy.zip 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

How much money are you bringing with you? There are countries that offer golden visa programs to the wealthy. Some of them may still have residency requirements (e.g. live there for x years) but otherwise it would basically allow anyone with money to become a citizen, or at the bare minimum obtain a visa to live there.

https://www.investopedia.com/golden-visa-program-7975290

[–] ULS@lemmy.ml 3 points 10 months ago

Yeah... Not enough... Barely any.

[–] glomag@kbin.social 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

"Greece’s golden visa program requires a minimum investment of approximately $263,000 (€250,000) in real estate."
Is that enough to buy an average house? Is the economy still this bad over there?

[–] IMongoose@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I just looked at realestate.com for greece, it's really bad. I'm probably not searching right but i looked at a few dozen "houses" up to 250k euro and they are legit ruins. Also 90% of the photos are terrible. I also suspect most of these listings are scams, I swear I saw the same houses a few times. I did see some really gnarly looking trees though, those would be cool to look at from your caved in house.

Ok, all the bogus listings are 1 bed 1 bath, setting it to 2 bed 1 bath minimum gets such better results. There are some really neat houses for 100k-150k euro. Lookit this one: https://www.realestate.com.au/international/gr/neapoli-crete-120082459627//

[–] Turun@feddit.de 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Location, location, location

The us can be really cheap too. But you won't want to live there.

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