chapotraphouse

Also side note this interaction filled me with joy.

Bedtime discourse is a waste of energy and bandwidth when 4 day work week is an actually viable improvement that could happen in our lifetimes. Dividing our attention between different time-based issues is a surefire way to reduce effectiveness at getting either of them achieved.

Anyway Flexi-Time is already a standard thing used by huge quantities of businesses, it's widely adopted in the UK even by government. It literally eliminates this issue.

Stop talking about bedtimes and start organising to drag your company into giving Flexitime as a concession to workers.

The capitalist/industrialized sleep schedule is not natural. Humans evolved to sleep at different times to provide security to the community. Some rise early, some sleep late, some sleep in "shifts".

Your body will tell you when and how long to sleep, Fuck the bosses' schedules.

Flexible schedules should be considered a worker's right. Obviously the degree to which your schedule can be flexible depends heavily on what you do but I think there are more jobs than people think where you could make the schedule "show up any time, as long as the work gets done some time today" and it would work fine.

The problem is not just the 9-5 society (or more like 7-3 if you're working in construction or similar). These received schedules doesn't work for everyone and that is a problem. But the problem is also that there is simply not enough time for sleep in most people's daily schedules, no matter at what time of the day you put it.

If you have a full time job and a commute and you have housework and other chores that needs to be done for things to function and you also want to have the luxury of feeling like a person with some kind of agency to decide what you want to use your time on, even if it is just for a little while, then you rarely have the time to also get eight hours of uninterrupted sleep. This gets even worse if you have children.

The only way the ruling liberal-conservative ideology can engage with the problem is to turn it into a question of individual moral shortcomings and shame people for taking a little leisure time for themselves at the end of the day. "Why are you complaining about being sleep deprived, you ungrateful peasant? Just do nothing but work and sleep."

a 9-5 schedule drains my energy

No shit, that's half the point. All you should have energy left for in the evening is to consume a bit of distilled pop culture and some of your vice of choice

Scrolling on my phone all night, natural and good, but the boss wants me to go to work in the morning, unnatural and bad.

The 28-hour day is the coolest idea I have ever heard of and I wish I lived in space so I could do it.

She's right about what she's saying but I don't really see how it relates to "bedtime abolition." Like I feel completely the same about sleep schedules. I dropped out of high school primarily because I could not fucking handle being on a consistent daytime schedule every day, week after week. I got third shift / overnight jobs and I'm much, much healthier now. I get actual sleep now. Some people just aren't built for the 9-5.

But what the fuck does that have to do with parents making their kids get to sleep at a reasonable time relative to their responsibilities lol

To me it seems that standardized business hours arise from cooperation in the work place, which increased exponentially with the industrial revolution. Capitalist, socialist, whatever, if you have people cooperating in factories (e.g.) then they have to be there at the same time. So "bedtime abolition" seems utopian because it is the practical consequence of a cooperative productive process, and it can't be abolished without abolishing the actual basis, cooperative labor, or more specifically the necessity of simultaneous work. Our production would have to change such that work is parceled out in time-independent units, which is possible for a lot of industries, but by a structural change and not by decree. Software development is cooperative but does not typically require that developers cooperate in real time, for example.

And of course, the above is made all the more severe by the actual duration of the working day. If people only had to work 4 hours per day, then it would be far easier to handle standard business hours of 10a-2p for example, even if they technically are not flexible hours.

4am-noon is my sleep schedule too!

The primary thing that annoys me about this person's point is the term "bedtime abolition." She doesn't want bedtime abolition at all; no one does (everyone wants to go to bed at some point, after all). What she wants is wakeup-time abolition. And I agree with that. Calling it bedtime abolition has the dual effect of incorrectly expressing the issue, and making the person saying it sound like a whiny child.

it's not a bad take, but getting there via being reactively pissed about people poking fun at "bedtime abolition" isn't doing much for the case that anarchists are serious. which obviously many anarchists are, but being overly serious about the bedtime abolition bit isn't doing any favors for anarchism.

Broke: abolish bedtime

Woke: bedtime is 24/7 😴

Monkey's paw curls and the next capitalist frontier is the hours between 5PM and 9AM, for all businesses. You can exploit three times as many people!

Why shouldn't third shift be for offices, too!?

I gotta say, I was meant for a second shift schedule. Going to bed at maybe 1 am, waking up at 9? That's the stuff.

Yeah I'm a late-nighter too. I used to lie in bed and stare at the ceiling for hours and that's how I got depression

The point is fine yet framed in such a way I want to reflexively disagree with it.

i was designed to be a vampire

There's basically 3 essential people in the kitchen I work, aside from the chef. One is on mornings and me and another guy are the evening. We basically have a ballpark schedule. I start from 1 to 4pm depending on circumstances and my mood and we kinda just figure out which I'd gonna close during the night and who's gonna come in when based on how busy it was and if it wasn't that busy we just swap which one of us gets out early.

Nah. I've seen people literally argue that giving children a bedtime is by definition oppressive. Hence the bedtime abolition thing.

This person is trying conflate a critique of the 9-5 standard work/schoolschedule, which most of the tankies she hates would agree with, with the sort of juvenile lifestylism that is rife among these types of people. She's just trying to rehabilitate the more embarrassing views of people she considers to be ideologically aligned with her

Edit: literally this right here in the replies, this is why people talk about bedtime abolitionists. This person is literally saying that bedtimes should be abolished!

I would probably not be staying up this late if it weren't for screens. Sometimes I am working on stuff, but usually I am fucking around and not even having fun because I think I am going to look at one thing and then go to bed, over and over for like two hours. I'm almost definitely more sensitive to the light than others but I know I sleep better and earlier if I avoid them for a while before I go to sleep. I've managed to get into sleep schedules where I naturally wake up early but it is extremely hard to get into and easy to fall out of.

the most common criticisms of anarchist ideas are not that they're wrong, but that they're obviously true, yet meaningless in the face of the bigger picture that this is just how things ought to be

It's "bad framing" because bedtime isn't the actual problem. If your child needs to be at school at 8am, is perfectly reasonable to have them go to bed at a time that allows them to get enough sleep (potentially). Of course people will dunk on you for "bedtime abolition".

So it's a bad person making a bad argument, why should I pay attention?

I don't understand why "time is a social construct" means that it isn't important, or that it not being important is a prerequisite for respecting people's energy needs. Aren't we just asking for the resting time of workers to be valued and allowed flexibility?