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I'm concerned that the continued existence of a certain post is normalizing Doxxing "people we don't like", and that's not okay. (beehaw.org)

submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by th3raid0r@beehaw.org to c/chat@beehaw.org

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Totally expect to see a sea of "Nazi Sympathizer" comments, but look. I don't think we should be Doxxing anyone so that we don't invite folks to Doxx us.

I don't think this is radical, but apparently this opinion is somehow tantamount to being an actual Nazi in that thread.

I don't wish to remain in a community that says that Doxxing is bad unless we disagree with the victim - and I think that the post's continued existence communicates this. Sure, it's a federated post and not from our community, but honestly, I think it should be removed from Beehaw. I've already removed it from my tucson.social instance since I'm in no mood to deal with retaliatory doxxing.

Post link - https://beehaw.org/post/10286519

To be clear, the Moderators have been removing the worst offending comments since the article itself doesn't actually Dox anyone, but navigating to the source thread on lemmy.ml provides easy access to ALL the doxxed information. As such, I think the whole post should be removed and/or locked.

Update: Post has been removed - I have no further issues. As an aside - good lord Beehaw - I get it I'm a Nazi apparently. I'll get out of your hair and delete my account later this evening. Sheesh.

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[–] TheRtRevKaiser@beehaw.org 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I don't know why you're trying to start drama.

The Vice article was a news article that was reporting on this leak, but it didn't name any names and didn't link to the leaked database. The post in question also wasn't a beehaw post, it was a federated post from lemmy.ml. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how federation works, but I would expect lemmy.ml's mods to handle moderating those posts.

And, frankly, I'm not sure I disagree with the screenshot you posted elsewhere in this thread. I don't think it was wrong for a person to leak the IronMarch forum database a few years ago, which exposed a bunch of Atomwaffen members in the US and neo-nazis elsewhere, and I'm not sure I think it's wrong for someone to have leaked this db either.

This isn't "it's okay to dox people you disagree with" or calling people with different political opinions nazis. These are actual nazis.

[–] PotentiallyAnApricot@beehaw.org 6 points 1 year ago

Thank you for adding this context.

[–] th3raid0r@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Did you even read my post? I actually conceded the fact the article itself isn't the issue, but the posts comments which were indeed Doxing folks. I even conceded that so far admins were doing a good job of removing the actual doxxing comments, but this post was gaining so much traction that such an effort would be futile.

Given that a majority of your comment seems to assume I'm taking a position I'm not, I'm not sure how to respond.

[–] magnetosphere@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Beehaw isn’t reddit, where one can get away with being a horrible person as long as one doesn’t technically break the rules. The beehaw mods don’t tolerate Nazi bootlickers, even if they’re polite bootlickers.

Creating this thread won’t solve anything. If you have a question or concern, the beehaw mods are very open and easy to communicate with.

[–] th3raid0r@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago

I'm so confused. You're responding to a post that I'm confused about assumptions OP was making about my position and you come in and state something general about the beehaw philosophy (of which I read - and agree).

Are you just trying to call me a bootlicker or something? Looking at this thread I don't see how I'm being "politely horrible".

Could you expand?

[–] admin@beehaw.org 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've removed it.

[–] th3raid0r@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thank you! I woulda made this a private report, but it seems like those mechanisms are borked today.

[–] derbis@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What's borked about it? I've used the report feature today but I'm on a 3rd party app so if it didn't work, I didn't get any indication

[–] th3raid0r@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That might be it, I wasn't using an App, just the beehaw UI.

[–] derbis@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

I think it's more likely that you're seeing the actual behavior in that case though...

[–] FlashMobOfOne@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

There was another thread where people were calling for McCarthyist treatment of the legislators that refuse to vote for more war money to Ukraine.

There's been a ton of doxxing in the US over valid criticism of Israel, including advertising trucks with students' names, photos, and info driven around college campuses.

It may be that people just need to simmer down a little. I still remember when Spike Lee tweeted the name and address of the wrong George Zimmerman and forced an innocent old couple into hiding.

[–] th3raid0r@tucson.social 3 points 1 year ago

It seems that more and more people feel justified in their doxing. And that's what scares me. More more people feeling justified to perform a form of violence.

Because that's what doxing is, a form of non-physical violence.

[–] senseamidmadness@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago

Nazis are ontologically evil with a documented history of genocide. They deserve far worse than just doxxing.

If you're not comfortable with anti-Nazi activity, you need to ask yourself why.

Maybe it's because you're uncomfortable with the idea of hostility in general? If so, you need to understand that fascist ideology is in and of itself hostile, and any action against it by the people it targets is self-defense.

I'm queer and the people in that list would kill me or worse if given the chance. Do you understand that?

[–] kglitch@kglitch.social 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In the 5 months since you joined beehaw, you didn't make a single comment or post until now. And the first post you make is to defend literal Nazis.

Uh huh. Tell us more about your "concerns", please. You seem real invested in the health of beehaw /s

[–] th3raid0r@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because I typically comment from my account at tucson.social - I've been in the discord since the early days and even helped the team iron out some federation issues between tucson.social and here. Sure, I'm not on first name basis with you or the admins, but to say I'm just now showing up isn't correct.

[–] kglitch@kglitch.social 4 points 1 year ago

Fair enough. I apologise.

[–] th3raid0r@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Okay, so the discussions on Discord have revealed to me that I shouldn't stay here.

Apparently it is okay to Dox those we don't like here.

So, apparently if things are getting normalized we should just "go along with it"?

OOOkay, I'll get the popcorn.

[–] alyaza@beehaw.org 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

"Apparently it is okay to Dox those we don’t like here."

just so we're clear here: not only is this obviously me speaking personally (which the screenshot illustrates)--and not only is this a position i'll stand by absolutely--but i think this is also a circumstance where "objecting to doxing" is really silly. many of these people aren't 4chan edgelords, they're just aspiring terrorists. Midgard is widely believed to be associated with the Nordic Resistance Movement, which has a long history of criminality, violence, ethnic hatred, killing, and attempted terrorism. NRM in its own right has a wide array of connections with other violent, neo-Nazi organizations like Atomwaffen and the Azov Battalion. the supposedly objectionable article says as much.

In its write-up, AFA Stolkholm says the men who run Midgård are connected to the Nordic Resistance Movement. Founded in 1999, the Nordic Resistance has long been one of Scandinavia’s longest-lasting and most dangerous neo-Nazi organizations. Members have been arrested for a myriad of violent crimes, including assault and murder.

i think it's pretty understandable to want to publicize the names and addresses of people in the vicinity of or party to an organization like this for a wide variety of reasons, especially if you're a group they might target! but, and this is another thing that makes this a rather bizarre hill to die on: the article being objected to also didn't do that. it did not provide a link to any of the information in question, it just reported on it being posted and its significance. this is not "doxing", this is just journalism about a doxing event. add to this not being posted on Beehaw (i.e., something we're not even directly responsible for from a moderation perspective), and this seems like a wildly overblown reaction to a pretty banal article reporting on an action that i think is extremely morally and socially defensible.

[–] th3raid0r@tucson.social 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I never claimed the article to do that. I claimed that despite the article not doxing anybody that the comments in the thread were.

And It was just one of many issues with the thread. It was very much. Also a hostile and toxic place to be. It stood head and shoulders over other similarly distasteful posts which is why I had issue with it.

As on Reddit, no one really cares about the not so popular posts. But this post was top of the all feed drawing in more distasteful discourse.

My position is that doxing is a form of violence. Violence in this definition is anything that restricts your choices. (Source: Philosophy Tube). Thus doxxing is violence since it forces one to move, react, or retaliate in response to the leaked information.

It is never acceptable to me - full stop.

The only entity with "Doxxing" permissions are government agencies with robust oversight such that this violence is only used when it's the lesser evil over not.

[–] alyaza@beehaw.org 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

My position is that doxing is a form of violence. Violence in this definition is anything that restricts your choices. (Source: Philosophy Tube). Thus doxxing is violence since it forces one to move, react, or retaliate in response to the leaked information.

okay but this just invites the obvious question:[^1] why is it bad to do violence against a group of people who are disproportionately either Neo-Nazi terrorists or people who sympathize with/fund Neo-Nazi terrorists? let's be clear, this is an unambiguously Neo-Nazi storefront that has been compromised, and its founders are again widely believed to be connected to a group whose membership engages in constant acts of violence and aspires to do terrorism against minority groups. there are really no "innocent people" being theoretically caught in the crossfire here.[^2] i will once again restate that i think "being doxed" is quite a tame social prescription to adhering to an openly genocidal ideology.

[^1]: even if we don't debate the merits of this definition, which i think you could because i think this is a very dubiously workable definition of violence [^2]: and even so, the group which compromised the data is offering to make amends with people who have been compromised and expunge them from the lists

[–] UngodlyAudrey@beehaw.org 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In 99% of cases, you would be correct. However, these are Neo-Nazis we're talking about here. Like, if they got their way, I'd be dead, so so would a lot of other innocent people. Their ideology has caused unspeakable horrors, and it'll happen again if we let our guard down. There has to be a social cost to being a Nazi. Like, this shit is getting way too close to the right wing mainstream. This isn't a matter of just "people we don't like". They're dangerous. Name them. Shame them. Ruin their lives. Force their evil ideology back into the deep, dark fringes where it belongs.

[–] th3raid0r@tucson.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Does the violence of Doxxing accomplish that? I see no evidence that Doxing has done anything but embolden them. For me, if I look at the actual impact of these sorts of things, it doesn't seem that Doxxing is effective at actually fighting back, and is, in fact, making things more dangerous for folks like you and me, not less. Sure we get that rush of dopamine when "Karen the Racist" is fired for her own stunts when revealed to the company, but we don't check back in within 6 months to see that these people have largely recovered.

Retribution only begets more retribution. Personally, I'm more for restorative justice - even for those we find reprehensible.

Heck if the purpose is to "defend ourselves", going the route of retribution seems counter to that goal.

As for social costs - they already exist. I wouldn't be a friend with a proud neo-nazi, nor would most people. But this level of Doxxing is amplifying that social cost to unproductive levels - and I fear it serves as nothing more than a leftist/liberal virtue signalling performance.

If a drug dealer should receive compassion because of the systemic inequities that led him to "offend" - thus deserving restorative justice, why are closet Nazi's that much different? We already know that retributive justice doesn't work, and many of us would rather see it dismantled. Is every Nazi unfixable? I think the only people that can really answer this question are Germans. (And if anyone from Germany is here now, I'd love to hear your view on this - if it worked, what didn't work, etc)

[–] UngodlyAudrey@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sometimes you just need to throw some hands to prevent worse violence down the line. It isn't a perfect world and we're a bunch of upjumped apes. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to be better than that, but we should at least be realistic about the hand we've been dealt. That being said, perhaps you're right about going the restorative justice route. I just worry because, this is getting normalized way past what anyone should feel comfortable about. Like, I feel we should do everything we can to prevent people from becoming Nazis. If naming and shaming deters people from going down that rabbit hole, I think we at least have to consider it.

[–] th3raid0r@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

Agreed, but in our world, with the powers that be sympathizing with fascism more and more, it's increasingly important to never be seen as throwing the first punch. Throwing hands needs to be in response to something meaningful. Otherwise we cede the moral ground in the eyes of many and reduce our ability to build more political power.

To be clear, I understand what I'm asking for seems AGONIZING, to "turn the other cheek" feels incredibly dangerous in the moment. But we have to understand that "turning the other cheek" is a social performance that helps build our power, and makes us safer. Doxing, by contrast, earns very little sympathy from a person that sees things in the common "both sides" narrative.

[–] admin@beehaw.org 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

None of the admins of Beehaw are advocating doxxing. It isn't nice and it is not allowed here.

[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 3 points 1 year ago

Your users do kinda appear to disagree with you, both on the niceness and the allowance.

[–] PotentiallyAnApricot@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I think it’s perfectly valid to feel a personal conviction against doxing as tactic to fight neo nazism, without also conflating someone’s ideas on the subject with “what is okay here” and “getting the popcorn”. It feels kinda weird to me and less like an attempt to raise a concern, and more like something else that may not be entirely in good faith. I think reasonable people can disagree on this one without it being a blanket statement about beehaw, or what you are expected to think or feel comfortable/uncomfortable with as a user. It’s perfectly okay to not like what you read or agree with it. But I’m uncomfortable with your implication that this one screenshot means things it doesn’t actually say, in a broad way about beehaw. Unless I’m missing some information, no one has doxxed anyone here. Please don’t try to start popcorn-getting-level conflicts here. I don’t think anybody wants that.

[–] alyaza@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

i will note, rather conspicuously, only about one-third of the actual exchange was posted. here's the rest--this is all basically public since it's in the community discord

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[–] th3raid0r@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Fair point - commented more in response to the full image, but suffice it to say that it didn't really seem that inherently personal. The context was that the response was initially "We don't usually do that" and the disourse in response was explaining their personal philosophy. When that's done it's hard to establish if this is truly a personal opinion or not.

[–] PotentiallyAnApricot@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It sounds like the post in question was not on beehaw, and it was later removed. I can understand feeling strongly about that, but no one was actually doxxed on beehaw and regardless of anyone’s opinions on whether or not it’s ok to dox neo nazis, it was made clear that doxxing would still be against beehaw’s rules. It sounds like the moderators were following their policy of not messing with non-beehaw posts, but then did actually go ahead and remove it. So their own philosophy about it didn’t impede moderation decisions. No one said that it was ok to “dox people we don’t like here”, they said that while they personally believed that doxxing people who specifically engage in the violent ideology of neonazism was ok, the post in question was outside beehaw’s usual moderation scope. Later it was clarified that doxxing is against beehaw’s rules, and the federated post was removed anyway. I do think all that nuance is really important, and I do think that, intentionally or not, your post initially made the situation sound like something pretty different than what was actually said or what happened.

[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

As an outsider looking in, I sorta assumed doxxing was the point of beehaw. Is it not?

[–] chloyster@beehaw.org 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is a pretty wild claim. Care to elaborate what you mean?

[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Based on user action and discussion, it pretty well seemed like this instance and a few others were built for the express purpose, or at minimum carved out and set aside space for the express purpose, of corralling and targeting harassment campaigns.

Which included, but was not limited to, doxxing the targets.

And literally here in this thread, multiple users with bigger than the thread average upvotes, are defending both the specific instance of doxxing as well as the concept in general.

Its pretty clear from this post right here that the instance is a pro doxx instance. What about my comment was wild?

[–] chloyster@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

My thoughts on the topic of this thread aside, you claim we have built a reputation for this. I would ask that you provide other examples of this. I have been fairly active on beehaw for quite a few months now and have not seen this behavior. You may say I am biased as I am a mod on the platform, but I do truly think beehaw does its best to uphold its ethos. And what you claim the "point of beehaw" is, is directly antithetical to our ethos.

[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Sure, read this thread. Op accused of being a secret nazi plant, multiple people defending doxxing, screenshots of your discord doing the same, someone calling me a troll for having this understanding of this instance while actively defending doxxing in the comments calling me a liar and troll for saying this is a pro doxx space, and me, an outsider, being surprised that this wasnt a common understanding within your community.

I think thats a fairly good sample size, no? You guys wrote most of this thread.

[–] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You made the claim that this place has developed a "reputation", which implies it being among other people than just you, here, now.

[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Are you asking me to make a post in another instance, asking for people to come here and vouch for me? Because thats entirely inappropriate.

And I cant exactly search lemmy in any successful way to find likely months old comment chains. Even if the search function wasnt borked, I dont memorize every post title and convo chain Ive read per instance.

Thats an insanely unreasonable ask, especially given the direct proof of pro doxx mentality this post already shows.

[–] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I didn't ask for any of that.

Do you often find that when you encounter simple statements, you then spin them into wild and far-reaching demands in your mind, that somehow also just happen to reinforce the fear you already expressed feeling?

[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Didnt you? What other proof would you be asking for?

And what fear? Are you responding to the right comment?

E: unless youre playing the "technically, I didnt ask the question, I just responded directly supporting it" but if thats your game you know thats nonsense

[–] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If you want me to be more direct, I'll do it:

There is no reputation for Beehaw being a place that allows, conducts, directs, or supports doxxing or brigading. I won't ask you to provide proof of a reputation otherwise, because I know you can't. You can forgo the charade of fake justifications for why you won't provide what we both know isn't there.

I did a LOT of reading on fediverse communities about different instances before I settled on joining Beehaw, and the entire reason I ended up here is because Beehaw has the (very valid) reputation for being a "safe space", quite the opposite from what you're claiming.

[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This entire post is full of heavily upvoted defenses of doxxing, including from some of the people telling me the same thing you are saying while actively defending doxxing.

But since direct proof going on around you """doesnt count,""" of course I wouldnt be able to find anything that would be enough proof for you. You have made it clear this wasnt about proof, its about blindly defending your in group.

Im glad you did loads of research before settling down. I guess that makes the (very valid) doxxing reputation that your communities actions here have reinforced magically turn to dust? But your "research" clearly couldnt have been wrong, so this post and everyone in it must be a hallucination of mine.

[–] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Apparently you either cannot or will not differentiate between people saying, "you know what, I don't really care if a bunch of literal Nazis got doxxed" (which folks here did say), and "let's doxx people here" (which folks here did not say), and that just speaks more about your inability to interact with nuance than it indicates anything about your moral stances.

[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I already have multiple beehaw users following me and harassing me. Including "brand new" accounts from other instances. Youve made your point, fuck you and your little club. Im blocking the instance before one of you follows through with the threats.

[–] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

I already have multiple beehaw users following me and harassing me. Including “brand new” accounts from other instances.

the threats

Press X to doubt...

But if you're actually getting threatening PMs, flag them to the mods.

[–] averyminya@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

This thread that you just now found, yet Beehaw has a history of this?

Edit: I was scrolling all and came across another thread, and happened to respond to them. Forgive me for participating on the Internet.

Too late for them to see this. Oh well.

[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The thread a different person made, bringing up a concerning trend they dont like seeing here?

That was in the All tab, like every other post made on lemmy?

What point do you even think youre making?

E: nvm stalker, blocked

[–] PotentiallyAnApricot@beehaw.org 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This very much seems like the statement of a troll who hasn’t spent a lot of time here. Please desist.

[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The thread is full of people defending doxxing. Calling me a troll while the thing Im talking about is going on around you in real time is a bold attempt at gaslighting.

And there is now people accusing op of being a nazi for making this post. You sure Im the troll here bud?

[–] PotentiallyAnApricot@beehaw.org 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A handful of comments on a thread where people say that the doxxing of specifically nazis is a valid self defense tactic against nazism, is not the same as the “point of beehaw” - which is full of news, recipes, gaming and music discussions, chatter, all kinds if things - being about doxxing people. And i think you know that.

[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Or, your community has earned a reputation that it is actively proving to have earned in this thread, and you respond to any criticism with claims that any detractors must be trolls.

Meanwhile, op is being implied to be a neo nazi plant for making such a clear and valid point your admins needed to respond and remove a post for it.

You are even literally defending doxxing, right now, as valid.

Im not a troll, youre just failing to gaslight.

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