I have four out and one on the way, and they're all learning experiences! I'm not as excited about revisions, fortunately I have a wife who's a fantastic editor so I have a lot of good direction and encouragement when it comes time to go over it all again.
this post was submitted on 22 Jul 2023
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I have four out and one on the way, and they’re all learning experiences!
Nice! I'm glad to hear they each remain their own adventure - that should keep things interesting. Wow though - my entire notion of what it means to write a novel has been transformed by this first-first-draft experience. I literally had no idea what I was getting myself into. Every step along the way to reach even this not-quite-finished-draft point has been an acquisition of new skills on par with anything I've ever learned before. It's been enjoyable, but really a much more serious endeavor than I think I imagined at first.
I’m not as excited about revisions, fortunately I have a wife who’s a fantastic editor
That is a lucky turn of events. :-) I'm looking forward to revising because when I peek at the early parts of the book I can tell how much this experience has changed my writing. I think it's going to be fun to redo those parts with fresh eyes.
Hello there!
I'm at a place of "I want to write, but I can't figure out what I want to write". I recently came to the end of a project that I'd been working on for a number of years, and while I feel like I'm done with that story (after about 1.3 million words, not intended for publication), I just can't figure out where to go next. I haven't quite landed on an idea I can get excited about.
I'm pretty sure I don't want to be published. Nothing kills the joy of writing for me more than "okay, but is it marketable enough to sell?" No shade on anyone who wants to be published! It's just not for me.
(after about 1.3 million words, not intended for publication)
Sheesh. I'm at 106k words and that's 10x more than any single thing I've ever written before. 1.3 million sounds impossible - what a journey writing that must have been!
Nothing kills the joy of writing for me more than “okay, but is it marketable enough to sell?” No shade on anyone who wants to be published! It’s just not for me.
I can get that. In my case, I am going to need a second career as I age, and personal circumstances limit the sorts of things I can consider. Fortunately, this is something I can consider, something I am really enjoying, and something I think I can learn to be good at.
If you are willing to share, what's the scope and general description of your huge work?
The huge project was basically a big, sprawling sci-fi/fantasy adventure. Magic, aliens, transformation themes. I just started writing one day and kept going. The 1.3 million words was over five or six years, so it's mostly just that I was sticking with one story rather than hopping between different projects. It was definitely a journey, and I really enjoyed working on it. There's something really liberating about just writing whatever I want and not really worrying about writing for anybody but myself. But I just reached a point where I felt like I had nothing more to add to it.
That does sound pretty awesome. Writing a blended sci-fi/fantasy story is on my list of things I want to do, but I don't think I'm ready for that yet.
The worldbuilding for something that size must have been immense, I feel like that must have been the most fun part in a way.
A sci-fi/fantasy blend is less complicated than it seems, if it is something you want to give a try in future. Mine basically started out very Star Wars-esque, before it took on a life of its own and I played up the magical elements more. I find that I don't enjoy world-building for its own sake, so I tend to incorporate it into a story as I write. The results end up pretty fluid, but disorganised, which is interesting.
What kind of thing do you write?
I'm writing what I think of as "classic fantasy" - though whether others would find that term applicable I do not know.
No dragons, no Tolkien-esque races, but a typical Europe-ish setting, say 18th-ish century without gunpowder, and a fairly hard magic system which is both powerful and self-limiting, with a story of pursuing justice while being pursued by those who would deny it. The theme has ended up being very heavy on friendship and loyalty. It's not a cozy, but it's very much not grimdark, either.
I'm a little bit worried that I don't provide enough possibility of death to any of the main characters via the story as written, but I'm so close to the end that I'm not going to change anything unless I still feel this way during revision.
I find that I don’t enjoy world-building for its own sake, so I tend to incorporate it into a story as I write.
I do this as well, but I take somewhat copious notes regarding the significant details as I create them. It's too early to tell whether this is going to generate a result I'm happy with or not. 🙂
I was thinking about one of your opening comments before:
I just can’t figure out where to go next. I haven’t quite landed on an idea I can get excited about.
As kind of weird as it is for me to feel this way, I've been having random ideas lately that might be a good fit for where you are, depending on if you feel you are done with the entire world or not.
I have found myself daydreaming about doing short stories involving some of the secondary characters and the lives they had/have before they got swept up in the events of my story, or a slightly different idea would be to do short stories that may involve new characters but showcase a particular culture from the world, or an interesting situation to be solved in an interesting way with magic, or etc. For me, I feel like that's a fairly foolish daydream for the point where I am at this time. But for you, with all that body of work, and looking for something to do - maybe a good fit?
Edit:
A sci-fi/fantasy blend is less complicated than it seems, if it is something you want to give a try in future.
My worry there is that I'm not sure I can learn what I need to in order to write credible sci-fi while also learning to write. But I've been a majority-fantasy reader for my entire life, from a very early age. I feel like I've got a built in comfort zone on the fantasy side that is allowing me to focus more on learning to write than learning to write fantasy.
additional edits for minor corrections and clarity
No dragons, no Tolkien-esque races, but a typical Europe-ish setting, say 18th-ish century without gunpowder, and a fairly hard magic system which is both powerful and self-limiting, with a story of pursuing justice while being pursued by those who would deny it. The theme has ended up being very heavy on friendship and loyalty. It’s not a cozy, but it’s very much not grimdark, either.
This sounds really cool, actually! I think the "medieval" fantasy has been such a staple for so long that an 18th century vibe is quite refreshing. And nothing wrong with heading for the middle ground between cosy and grimdark.
I'm not sure how much you'd need to worry about threatening your characters with death. I kind of think the whole Game of Thrones "anybody can die at any time" thing is a bit overdone now, and it risks alienating readers too. I've dropped a few series because once all my favourite characters had been brutally killed off, I just didn't care enough about the handful still left alive that I was willing to keep paying for books, you know?
As kind of weird as it is for me to feel this way, I’ve been having random ideas lately that might be a good fit for where you are, depending on if you feel you are done with the entire world or not.
I'm definitely done with the world. Like, I love it, and I might go back to it one day, but after writing so much about it, I'm really ready to try something new and different. I'm feeling drawn to some xenofiction, maybe, I just haven't hit on the idea that really makes me go "yes, that one!" yet. I actually find short stories really challenging, because I tend to write by going really deep into a single character's POV, so if I care enough about them to write about them, then I want to write a lot. So... I just need to find that character+world combination that I feel attached to enough to spend time on, if you know what I mean?
My worry there is that I’m not sure I can learn what I need to in order to write credible sci-fi while also learning to write. But I’ve been a majority-fantasy reader for my entire life, from a very early age. I feel like I’ve got a built in comfort zone on the fantasy side that is allowing me to focus more on learning to write than learning to write fantasy.
That makes sense, yeah! Working with a new genre is challenging, especially if it's not one you've read a lot. But a sci-fi/fantasy blend is more forgiving in that respect than hard sci-fi, since the magical elements allows you to get away with fuzzier science.
This sounds really cool, actually!
Aw thanks!
This sounds really cool, actually! I think the “medieval” fantasy has been such a staple for so long that an 18th century vibe is quite refreshing.
Thanks - though I must admit it's a very loose triangulation just based on sort of the state I wanted technology and such to be. (except the gunpowder of course) I didn't want to have to write about people eating from trenchers and such. Due to the lack of gunpowder I've preserved certain weapons that otherwise would likely not be very prevalent with firearms around, but it's not the kind of story where I go very deep in drawing attention to that, either.
And nothing wrong with heading for the middle ground between cosy and grimdark...I’ve dropped a few series because once all my favourite characters had been brutally killed off, I just didn’t care enough about the handful still left alive that I was willing to keep paying for books, you know?
Thanks - I try not to get too inside my own head about those sorts of things, but from time to time I get an imaginary "reader" on my shoulder saying "Oh sure and somehow none of them died during all that?" I appreciate your pointing out that not everyone will have that reaction though. The character I was considering killing off has probably got the broadest appeal of any of the main characters, so if I had, I might have walked right into the trap you mention. 🙂
I’m definitely done with the world. Like, I love it, and I might go back to it one day, but after writing so much about it, I’m really ready to try something new and different.
Yeah that totally makes sense. That's a lot of words (and who knows how many more you revised/trimmed out over the years) for a solitary pursuit, I could absolutely understand wanting to do something different.
Working with a new genre is challenging, especially if it’s not one you’ve read a lot.
I've read a fair bit of sci-fi too, but not a quantity that I feel is really going to help me write it, if that makes sense.
But a sci-fi/fantasy blend is more forgiving in that respect than hard sci-fi, since the magical elements allows you to get away with fuzzier science.
That's a great point, and something to consider.
I’m feeling drawn to some xenofiction, maybe,
I had to google that I admit - that does sound very interesting. Now with your comment about short stories I'm going, "So like a squirrel who witnesses some major historical event while going about his daily life, but has no idea of the significance it poses to humans?" Would that be the sort of thing that would qualify? I have to admit THAT is a genre I have never read.
I just need to find that character+world combination that I feel attached to enough to spend time on, if you know what I mean?
I totally do - it's funny how things just grab you. My story originates almost entirely from a dream I had that inspired the magic system I use. I didn't even decide I was going to write a story for another year or more after that, but all during that time I kept thinking it would be a fun magic system to work with. When I decided I was ready to start writing, it was immediately what I thought of.
Well, if you decide to let folks read your work, I can't promise I'll get through that many words in a timely fashion, but I'd love to give it a shot.
Thanks - though I must admit it’s a very loose triangulation just based on sort of the state I wanted technology and such to be. (except the gunpowder of course) I didn’t want to have to write about people eating from trenchers and such. Due to the lack of gunpowder I’ve preserved certain weapons that otherwise would likely not be very prevalent with firearms around, but it’s not the kind of story where I go very deep in drawing attention to that, either.
So basically an 18th century vibe in terms of the culture and most forms of technology, but still using swords and the like for weapons? It immediately makes me curious about how an 19th century world would develop if gunpowder hadn't been available. Very interesting idea.
Yeah that totally makes sense. That’s a lot of words (and who knows how many more you revised/trimmed out over the years) for a solitary pursuit, I could absolutely understand wanting to do something different.
Oh yeah, it's probably 1.5 million if I include the bits that have been revised and trimmed. I had a particularly challenging plot line where I wrote and deleted and rewrote and deleted and rewrote several times, and on one occasion I removed an entire 40k word section (I kept a backup in case I changed my mind.)
I had to google that I admit - that does sound very interesting. Now with your comment about short stories I’m going, “So like a squirrel who witnesses some major historical event while going about his daily life, but has no idea of the significance it poses to humans?” Would that be the sort of thing that would qualify? I have to admit THAT is a genre I have never read.
Yep, that would totally qualify! Xenofiction covers everything that tells a story from the perspective of something that isn't human (or a near-human analogue like dwarves, elves, vampires, humanoid aliens a la Star Trek). So that could be a squirrel witnessing a major historical event while having no idea of its significance, where the purpose of the story is showing how an event of great human importance looks from the outside. And then there's stories where the whole point is to immerse oneself into the perspective of a non-human creature's own experiences (Anna Sewell's Black Beauty and Jack London's White Fang are good examples here, as stories which are focused on how the animals experience life, but also completely grounded in a sense of realism - both these books are public domain, so can be freely downloaded from Project Gutenberg), which are often events that are completely unimportant to humans.
Then there's also xenofiction that overlaps a bit with fantasy, where the non-human creatures are sapient and have their own cultures, folklore, languages, etc, while still looking at the world in a very non-human way, and the worldbuilding might include some very minor magical elements. Richard Adams' Watership Down is the go-to here, which portrays its rabbits as animals who don't have the ability to understand things the way humans do, while still giving them enough sapience that their culture and folklore is a big part of the story.
The next step beyond that are proper fantasy and sci-fi books that are written from the perspectives of dragons, aliens, etc that are very clearly and explicitly equal to humans in intelligence/sapience, while being non-human. There's not a lot of good examples where the whole book is written like this, but the chapters of the Temeraire series written from Temeraire's point of view are decent examples of how it works.
I actually find a lot of modern xenofiction a bit disappointing. There's kind of this assumption that it's a genre for kids, so while they're often violent, they're... dumbed down and sanitised in a way that stories like Black Beauty and Watership Down aren't, with the characters coming across more like 11 year old humans in furry bodies rather than beings with a completely different perspective on life. A really good xenofiction book should challenge you to feel genuine empathy in a very raw and visceral sense, with something that experiences the world in a completely different way. Black Beauty and Watership Down are absolutely brutal to read (and the latter famously had an animated adaptation in the 1970/80s that traumatised an entire generation of children because it was classified as "suitable for all ages" and it really, really isn't).
So I think I want to write something focused on non-humans, but for an adult audience and not middle grade. Probably a limited market for it, but it's what I want to read, which always seems like a good place to start when writing something!
So basically an 18th century vibe in terms of the culture and most forms of technology, but still using swords and the like for weapons?
Yes exactly that! Though again loosely, I admit. I am doubtful my setting is more historically accurate for the real-world period than the Kevin Costner Robin Hood is for its period, but I'm telling myself that's OK since it's really secondary world. That secondary world excuse is a double edged blade though because in the beginning I really had to work to pack away the part of my brain trying to convince me that I needed to invent new words for units of time, common foods, animals, etc. 😀
Very interesting idea.
Thanks! The use of swords, bows, staffs (staves?) etc is really the main impact of this that I've shown so far. More may creep in during revision. I have done a bit of research into likely impacts in other areas, but there seem to be surprisingly few for that point in history that have been significant enough to make it into the book.
I'm a huge fan of the Powdermage series by Brian McClellan, but I didn't want to incorporate gunpowder into my magic system as he did, and I also didn't want it to be a negating factor for my magic system. I'm sure I could have worked around those concerns, but ultimately it just seemed more likely to complicate things than add much to the story. Most fantasy I've read hasn't included gunpowder/guns, and I've not generally found that I missed it. Anyhow is there really room for another page-turner flintlock-fantasy??!! ;-)
on one occasion I removed an entire 40k word section (I kept a backup in case I changed my mind.)
I'm almost pathologically incapable of deleting things. Both in my writing and otherwise. There's always a backup of anything I could ever ever see needing again. That's a huge chunk. I don't think you could pay me to delete that much without a backup.
Anna Sewell’s Black Beauty and Jack London’s White Fang are good examples here
Read both of those decades ago, I didn't even think of them - good examples, I loved them both. Now I understand better.
Richard Adams’ Watership Down
I have heard of but not read this, I will add it to my someday list.
So I think I want to write something focused on non-humans, but for an adult audience and not middle grade. Probably a limited market for it, but it’s what I want to read, which always seems like a good place to start when writing something!
I agree there, that's part of why I described my book the way I did. I want to write about people mostly trying to be good to each other. That's the sort of fantasy I always enjoyed reading the most, and although I hope it's the kind of fantasy others want to read, it's definitely he sort I want to write.
I read Tad Williams The Dragonbone Chair when it was new, so I admit I don't remember too much about it. But what has stuck with me after all these years is feeling like it's a book about true friendship, of a sort not everyone finds. I want to write books that folks remember that way years later. Bad things happen, villains exist, but the people you are going to spend the most time with are going to be the sort you would feel lucky to know IRL.
Couple of edits...
Working through the writing process currently on some nonfiction. Making a roadmap for the topics and text was deceptively "easy" and I've realized it's because I will hem and haw over the order incessantly until it is out of my hands. Gathering and reading through primary sources fires up the ol' imposter syndrome occasionally. That's one of the biggest challenges, personally, and I'm not always great at shaking the feeling of "why write this" even if I do make it back to it eventually.
Luckily some of our friends have skills or connections they've offered when the time comes, like a retired copy editor and someone who works for a small publisher. One of our newer friends revealed that they've got a master's related to the project and are figuratively dying for someone with whom to "talk shop", which is exciting and daunting all at the same time.
That sounds challenging and enjoyable. I've never written nonfiction for more than the length of a college essay, but it seems inherently more difficult to me, but it's good that you seem to have a supportive team already lined up to help you get over the finish line.
Good luck to you! (And what's the topic, if you are comfortable sharing at this time?)
It's mostly about garden designs, but our friend's relevant masters is in urban planning. And thank you, it's challenging but so far pretty rewarding.
I've been trying to write a story for a game I am working on and I can't get a good overall plot down. I am not typically a writer but what I do is writing adjacent so I thought it'd come more naturally. I'm a game engineer and working on my design skills. Mechanic design I am fairly good at but when it comes to narrative and setting, it becomes a bit more difficult for me. Any tips people can throw out are always welcome.
Any tips people can throw out are always welcome.
Whatever is going to work for you will probably be specific to you, but I think a good place to start is to read more stories. Try to nail down what it is you want to achieve with your story, and then find other stories that have succeeded at that, at least in your opinion. There are rules and tropes and formulas to storytelling that will make it easier to entertain readers, but at the end of the day, if you don't like what you wrote, and you didn't enjoy writing it, then I don't think it's worth it.
In my experience, once you start reading a lot, you start thinking more like a writer. You'll be watching a movie or a show and be thinking "How would I write this scene, how would I describe this to someone who wasn't watching it, and how would I do that in a way that they got the same feeling I got when I was watching it?" or "How would I improve this story, in what ways did it fail to give me the feeling I was seeking?" or "How could I incorporate some of these same narrative devices in my story, what is it that I like about this and how can I convince people that they like my story for the same reasons?"
You'll especially start asking yourselves these questions when you know you have a good story, and you're obsessed with getting your story on to paper. You'll start filtering everything you experience through the lens of that obsession, and every piece of media you consume will become a piece of the collage you create.
At least that's how it is for me, maybe you're completely different.
I've been reading over this the last few days and thinking about what sort of materials I really want to dive into. What do I want to adopt and adapt from? What do I want to build off of? This advice has been great and gets me thinking about my creative process overall. I have a problem that I want to immediately start implementing the game mechanics before I even know what those game mechanics are going to truly represent. So I've been taking it slow, writing my design doc, writing my setting up, following that with the narrative or typical player path then writing up my mechanics with a specific section as to why and how they help deliver the experience the setting and narrative is trying to deliver.
Writing a game sounds like hard-mode to me, so I don't think I can help, but hopefully someone else will have tips!
Just write the usual way then realize the player is going to want to do everything in their power to go in a completely random direction and either you can mechanically support that or not. Additionally, the pacing is entirely on the player for the most part.
My contribution to beehaw so far is this comment. I have confidence issues, and have been essentially radio silent on social media for the past ten years, but I'm at a turning point in my life and writing is the only thing that makes sense I need to start now. I have a few sketches of ideas but none fully realized.
I'm primarily interested in short stories which I would like to potentially narrate in the future, but I'm slowly trying to get over the confidence problem at the moment.
My contribution to beehaw so far is this comment. I have confidence issues, and have been essentially radio silent on social media for the past ten years
Well, I feel honored that you are responding to my post! 🙂
but I’m at a turning point in my life and writing is the only thing that makes sense I need to start now
Turning points are precisely where you change direction in your life, so it sounds like you are doing the right thing! 👍
I’m primarily interested in short stories which I would like to potentially narrate in the future, but I’m slowly trying to get over the confidence problem at the moment.
While I can't possibly know exactly how you feel or what factors may have led to this, I do somewhat understand. I had general anxiety issues and maybe a tinge of depression when I put my feet on this path. I barely touched the project for the first 6 months or more after I decided I was doing it.
My really very amateur advice is - take positivity from everything you can. For example, what helped me was a BUNCH of honestly sort of small sounding things that seemed to bear fruit over time. Two examples -
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I made a playlist called "Positive" and added any song to it that made me feel good. Even if it wasn't explicitly a song about positivity - if it made me feel energized and happy to hear it, it went in. I would put that playlist on every time I sat down to write.
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When someone crossed my twitter feed who looked like they were spreading positive feelings to people, I followed them to ensure I'd get those positive messages in my feed.
I'd also suggest finding a writing podcast that you enjoy listening to. I've been listening to a few of them - at least one episode a day, and on one of them I'm about to start their back catalog for the third time. There are a lot of them out there, and they are all just a bit different from each other. One or more will click with you. It will not only educate and motivate you, but it will also help you feel more confident. Every one of these published writers that I have listened to has complained about the same feelings of doubt regarding their writing, the same difficulties with confidence and impostor syndrome, and really almost all the same problems that we beginners seem to have.
Although I don't intend to plug a particular one, the Writing Excuses podcast often discusses short fiction, and gives specific advice for short story writers. At least one of the regular hosts has extensive experience with short fiction. Their show is also a little bit different every season - they change up the structure of the show and have guest hosts, and other things to add variety and to cover a lot of facets of writing.
I'm not qualified to give you any advice about how to write, but I will say this advice from B. Dave Walters is in my head all the time - I'm paraphrasing: The worst thing you write is better than the best thing you don't write. (because it's the only way to get better and that won't happen if it stays in your head)
All the best to you!
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