From their statement, it sounds less like genocide isn't a red line for them, and more like they just straight up support genocide.
this post was submitted on 25 Dec 2024
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Yeah no wonder conservatives are winning victories all across the democratic world. It seems the left wing has suffered a collective lobotomy. We live in a world where the left is fragmented in purpose, condoning the unacceptable, and ineffective in climate action. It would be cool if the left was, you know, actually the left, instead of trying to be more like the cool right wing because they think that's what would win them more votes. Have some dignity, guys. Nobody is going to vote for the second, third or fourth best party at being right wing.
I mean, whether people want to admit it or not, the mixing of some pretty uncomfortable anti-zionist language with the legitimate criticism of human rights atrocities in Gaza, as well as the extreme purity testing which accompanies it, is seriously harming the peace movement.
Anti-Zionism is anti-fascism, it should be a baseline on the left. That's not "purity testing"
Not so simple. France has a radical leftwing party (The France Unbowed) that has been denouncing the genocide in Gaza for months. They got 70 deputies in the last snap elections, far from giving them any mandate to govern the country... Their activism is indeed a way to get votes from French people of Maghreb origins. Still, people label them as antisemitic because they won't accept the self-defense narrative that is being pushed by Israel.
I get that, i really do, but sometimes you just gotta take the loss for being unpopular if the cause is right. Israel is less popular today than it was yesterday. Sometimes you can't help that your core principles are not valued by the majority at the moment, for whatever reason. If events change the minds of people, there's a steady alternative to go to. To debase one's principles to appeal to the right wing voters will only make their constituency not vote. People who are right wing won't vote left because they are more anti immigration or more pro Israel. But people who vote left won't probably vote at all if the alternatives are right wing or right wing light. They just won't see themselves represented at all. Then you get low voter turnout.
Things ARE complicated! I surely didn't offer any way out of the issue!
The entire problem here is that there is a huge rhetorical gap between thinking the Netanyahu government is evil and needs to be held accountable for Gaza atrocities, and the idea that Israel needs to be violently dismantled and the people fed to dogs (yes i have literally seen people on here say "fed to dogs").
Conversations which start with anti-zionism are unhelpful, but this seems to have become a weird purity test on the left which is creating huge cracks in what would otherwise be a unified voice regarding Gaza.
I used to be a both sides have a right to exist and we should strive to achieve that, but the longer i hear Israeli and Israeli apologists speak online and the more i see their actions the harder it is to remain of that opinion.
My opinion now is that if we manage to successfully create the conditions to allow an independent state of Palestine and a state of Israel, it will be only a matter of time until Israel starts illegally occupying the Palestinian state. So unless it's a nuclear Palestinian state or a nuclear backed Palestinian state, it's very unlikely we can see a world where Zionism can exist in peace. Even with a nuclear Palestinian state, the Israeli mind would sit ill at ease trying to come up with a solution to disable the nukes and take over Palestine somehow, because Israeli can't fathom a world where they have to share the land that "god gave them", especially to a group of people they so overtly consider inferior to them.
So unfortunately the state of Israel itself has made me believe a two state solution is impossible no matter who leads Israel. It's the Israeli zeitgeist. Their culture is a culture of war, oppression and genocide and if their god is real, i cannot see it being anything else but deeply ashamed of who calls themselves its people, who act so brazenly contrary to the principles set by the torah. Were this not the case, i see no reason that we could not have two states. But it's like they say, if my grandmother had wheels, she would be an electric car. There's only one way forward left. One state ruled by both Jews and Muslims. It will be bumpy at first, but eventually they will figure it out, like we all did. The idea of a Jewish only state is a deeply flawed idea that has harmed Judaism deeply and should be abandoned. And even if Israel comes out winning with the help of the US and they manage to stamp out Palestine, i believe over time that is exactly what they will become given enough time, as the old guard dies and their flawed, bellicose and bigoted ideas die with them. And that is the irony thay everything they are doing, all the deaths, all the cruelty, will eventually be pointless because their ideal dream is flawed and unsustainable.
It's easy for France to condemn Israel because they do not carry such a certain heavy historical baggage unlike Germany.
It's very obvious why Germany won't do the same as France.
Yes and no. On the one hand, France actively helped the Nazis hunt French Jews during the occupation. Moreover, Germany should understand that you don't get the absolution for one genocide by enabeling another.
France actively helped the Nazis hunt French Jews during the occupation
It is more complicated than that. I have already mentioned this to someone: https://lemmy.world/comment/14167949
Even on Hannah Arendt's book, they mentioned that Vichy France even somehow half assed their attempts. Not because Vichy France wasn't anti-semite, they are just less bloodthirsty than the Nazis about.
Sure enough, France was not as determined to hunt Jews, and some French were determined to save them, with the Resistance, the Justes and the Communists. Nevertheless, France does carry part of the guilt, which partially explains its stance toward Israel and its unconditional "right to defend itself".
It's important to separate Hamas as an organisation and the Palestinian people. The October 7 attack is completely unjustified, and so is Israel's indiscriminate massacre of Palestinian people as a whole.
It’s very obvious why Germany won’t do the same as France.
It sure is, but probably not for the reason you're thinking
“It wasn’t his stance on Palestine, it was his stance on Palestine.” Wow, brilliant.
Also pretty funny to talk about someone’s “selective criticism” while supporting Israel’s genocide.
the only other mainstream leftist party in the country, the Greens
That particular mainstream "left" party is so left they should rename themselves "Browns"