this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2024
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Socialism

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I believe in socialism, but I feel Stalin shouldn't be idolised due to things like the Gulag.

I would like more people to become socialist, but I feel not condemning Stalin doesn't help the cause.

I've tried to have a constructieve conversation about this, but I basically get angry comments calling me stupid for believing he did atrocious things.

That's not how you win someone over.

I struggle to believe the Gulag etc. Never happened, and if it happened I firmly believe Stalin should be condemned.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 31 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (15 children)

For starters, "Gulag" just means "prison." Of course prisons existed in the USSR, and some had rather brutal conditions. Others, however, did not, and treated prisoners better to much better than your average American prison. Nobody is saying the Gulags never existed, perhaps they mean your specific interpretation of the conditions of gulags and the extent to which they were used. Edit 1

As for Stalin himself, it's fair to say he committed a fair degree of errors in judgement, had reactionary social views such as his view of homosexuality, was frequently paranoid, and so forth. At the same time, it is equally fair to understand that Stalin has been the subject of countless lies, exaggerations, myths, and other degrees of Cold War propaganda we learn as fact despite evidence to the contrary, especially following the opening of the Soviet Archives. Moreover, it is necessary to acknowledge the vital role he played in governing the worlds first Socialist State, and building the foundations of this rapid improvement on the utter squalor of the Tsarist regime.

Should Stalin be idolized? I don't think so, as I believe that can get in the way of accurate analysis. Should Stalin be villianized and made a scapegoat to brush the Red Scare under the rug? I don't believe so, either. The USSR came with countless benefits, from a doubling of life expectancy to free healthcare to near 100% literacy rates (better than the modern US), and more. These benefits were formed under Stalin, and as such we must do our absolute best to separate fact from fiction. If we accept and push purely the accepted bourgeois narrative regarding the real experience of AES states, then we cannot learn from them properly and sort out what worked and what did not.

Basically, Stalin was neither a perfect saint devoid of mistakes nor a unique monster that should be especially condemned. He was the leader of the USSR, but did not have absolute control, and in addition was in many ways less monstrous than contemporary leaders such as Hitler and Churchill. Correct contextualization is important. I highly recommend the short, 8 minute article "Tankies" by Roderic Day, hosted over on Red Sails. For more in-depth reading, Stalin: History and Critique of a Black Legend by Domenico Losurdo is a good historical critique of Stalin that focuses on taking a critical stance towards Stalin and contextualizes him.

Edit 1: seeing your other two comments, I am now entirely certain that this is the case.

[–] Edie@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

As always, I have a book that I wish to quote from, but I cannot choose which parts, so I'll just point to Russian Justice if anyone is interested.

For a shorter read see Chapter 14 in This Soviet World

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 weeks ago

Excellent work, comrade 🫡

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I think you hit the nail on the head with this comment. Stalin was a very influential man who shaped large part of the 20th century. Villanizing or idolizong his achievements without acknowledging the other side of the coin would be having an incorrect outlook on him.

I took a quick read of the link describing tankies. It more or less echoes what you said. That being said my observation of the use of the word tankie doesn't fall in line with what the author was talking about. I've seen it used primarily for people who staunchly or blindly defend figures like Stalin and are incapable of acknowledging any criticisms of said figures. What yoyre describing is more of a lefty or a socialist in my opinion. The article was written in 2020 so maybe the use of the word has evolved over time. I haven't been familiar with the word for that long to say otherwise.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 17 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

Regarding the term "tankie," I actually disagree with what you're saying here. The term "tankie" is described to mean what you say, but the term is applied to people with the same analysis as myself, Roderic Day, and others who defend AES. I've even seen Anarchists labeled "tankie." The reason the word "tankie" is used is because it allows the thrower to terminate the conversation and misrepresent the accused as having all of the blind, dogmatic sins the term itself has been associated with, regardless of the actual bearings of the conversation at play.

The quantity of people who actually fit the term "tankie" is miniscule compared to the quantity the word is thrown at with regularity.

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[–] AnonomousWolf@lemm.ee 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Thanks, this is the kind of response I was looking for. I'll look into what you said further.

With the image that Stalin has in the west, I think it alienates people when he's not condemned. I can't think of a singe leader that we should praise (Mandela maybe?) if anything we should praise ideas not people.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 14 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

If you don't directly challenge false, bourgeois narratives, then they are used as ammo against related subjects. "Stalin was a butcher of 100 million," if accepted, means the Soviet Union was a horrible failure as well. This means Socialism was a horrible failure in the Soviet Union. This cascading power of bourgeois narratives prevents real radicalization, and moreover allows repitition of failures if not properly analyzed.

Take another example. Stalin synthesized Marxism-Leninism. As a Marxist-Leninist, there is no avoiding Stalin when talking with liberals. Because of my belief that Marxism-Leninism is correct, I cannot avoid the topic of grappling with Stalin's existence.

As Marx said, "The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living."

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[–] Sam_Bass@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

he was s power hungry megalomaniac that felt no shame in killing anyone who crossed him

[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 weeks ago

When you get your politics from Marvel movies

[–] Shatur@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

From what I understand, people who were sent to Gulag mostly were Nazis, bourgeoisie (basically people like the UnitedHealthcare CEO) and counter-revolutionaries.

I'm not saying it was the best way to seize resources from the rich and prevent counter-revolution. Some of the things he did were good, and some were bad.

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[–] tiredturtle@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

He killed loyal communists, many falsely accused of treason, and became the poster boy of the Red Scare, providing anti-communists with propaganda to equate socialism with totalitarianism. His oppressive policies, human rights abuses, and betrayal of socialist principles alienated global leftist movements and set back the progress of socialism by decades.

[–] jaxxed@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 weeks ago

Not a great socialist

[–] JustVik@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

He is an ambiguous person. He certainly did a lot of good things, but there were mistakes and even from our point of view, quite cruel decisions. It is difficult to assess why he made certain decisions. There is a lot of unconfirmed information and ambiguous accusations around him, although, of course, there are bad decisions, maybe we don't know all the information, or maybe he was wrong. It was a difficult time back then. According to some reports, at the end of his life, even Lenin treated him ambiguously and was afraid of the concentration of power in one hand and even wrote a letter to the congress, but some doubt this, so it may not be true. To truly understand this, you need to be a historian and read a lot of original documents by yourself. But I don't think that we should consider him only a complete villain, as he is often exposed.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 weeks ago

Regarding Lenin, he specifically had beef with Stalin over his rude treatment of Lenin's wife, and wished someone would replace him who was in all manner the same except kinder. Ie, Lenin fully backed Stalin's positions, theoretical understanding, etc and wished he was simply a kinder person towards comrades when interacting with them.

Stalin tried to resign over this, and his resignation was rejected.

For further reading: Archival evidence and records show he tried to resign no fewer than four times, all rejected.

[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

From my limited understanding Stalin tried to change things too fast. A comparison that would piss everyone off is like Elon Musk going all-in on robotics in an underdeveloped country.

In the long term Stalins policies paid off, but a lot of people starved because as it turns out putting all your points in technology means you don't have farms.

Gulagging bourgeoisie also isn't bad per se. But Stalin definitely sacraficed innocent people in the crossfire.

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