By that logic, it sounds like it’s Ukraine’s affair whether or not it allows NATO armored brigades and CAP to operate in the Ukrainian theater, in concert with AFU forces.
this post was submitted on 25 Oct 2024
150 points (96.9% liked)
World News
38968 readers
2780 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
To be fair, that is probably up to Ukraine. Except that we aren’t offering those NATO brigades. I wish we would.
Can you imagine being a Putin supporter and simping for such a dumb and cowardly piece of shit?
*coughs politely and points at the tied election
I also can't imagine being a Trump supporter so....
if Ukraine wanted to join NATO then Moscow could do what it wanted to ensure its own security
NATO should really just allow Ukraine to join and tell Russia: get out within 1 week and restore the original borders or you're at war with NATO. It's Ukraine' and NATO's affair after all, correct?
That’s probably why NATO doesn’t invite countries at war. What’s stopping Ukraine from invoking article 5 immediately?
Well, that'd be the point of Ukraine joining NATO currently.
NATO maintains that it is a defensive alliance. If NATO starts adding countries Russia is currently at war with, it becomes an offensive alliance.
That being said, why wasn’t Ukraine added earlier?
NATO maintains that it is a defensive alliance. If NATO starts adding countries Russia is currently at war with, it becomes an offensive alliance.
I don't think so. Ukraine is in a defensive war. Actively joining their side doesn't turn it into an offensive one. The difference between offensive and defensive conflicts is the goal: In an offensive, you want to gain something. In a defence, it is about keeping what you have. Just because NATO would come to their aid, Ukraine wouldn't want to conquer Russia.
That being said, why wasn’t Ukraine added earlier?
Multiple reasons probably:
- Ukraine was and to some extent still is a post-soviet state: Oligarchs, corruption and all that comes with it.
- There was the Budapest Memorandum in place which guaranteed a sovereign Ukrainian state affectively as buffer between Russia and other NATO countries. Which was subsequently broken by Russia in 2014.
- "Don't anger the Russians". See where this got us?
Man, to drop decorum, I don’t give a shit about the Russians and angering them. I’m just trying not to give Russia a pretext to do something really fucking stupid. Yes, they can perform false flag operations for their own pretext.
Joining an active war without a prior alliance is an escalation. To keep NATO defensive and not to bring them into an active war, there should be a different agreement signed.
Hell, NK joining the war is an escalation by both NK and Russia. Does this justify NATO adding Ukraine just for them to immediately invoke article 5? I don’t think so.
Regardless of ethics and politicking though, someone HAS to be done to show Russia that it can’t just arbitrarily annex parts of other countries.
Hell, NK joining the war is an escalation by both NK and Russia. Does this justify NATO adding Ukraine just for them to immediately invoke article 5? I don’t think so.
Here's the thing, if Ukraine just invaded Kursk, unprompted, and Russia used North Korean troops to push them back into Ukraine, it would be problematic because of the sanctions against North Korea, but it would not be an escalation, it would merely be Russia's allies helping it to defend itself.
The reality though, because Russia is in Ukraine, is that those troops, even if they're only deployed to Kursk, are done so to free up more Russian troops to invade Ukraine. Which makes it a massive escalation of the invasion of Ukraine no matter what.
NATO troops (or planes if we were to impose a no fly zone), would, however, still be purely defensive. Hell, ask Ukraine to give up Kursk for direct Nato support and they would in a second.
Russia can stop being at war at any second, if it chooses to
Right, but if chooses too Ukraine will likely join NATO and Russia ends up with another NATO country against its land border.
The only reason they would withdraw is if they don’t have enough troops - which they are supplementing with North Korean troops. It’s against Russia’s geopolitical interest.
That and Putin is a crazy guy doing crazy things. Putin may not stop even if it IS in his best interests to do so
if it annexes Ukraine it it has multiple new NATO countries at its land border.
The idea of this strategic depth is, ultimately, an excuse. Poland didn't join NATO because it wanted to be a war torn wreck protecting Germany from suffering if Russia tries to invade.
The NATO countries bordering Russia aren't disposable. Bordering super powers is actually fine, if you're not a psycopath
Bordering super powers is actually fine, if you're not a psycopath
It's also fine if that superpower isn't a psychopath.
Did you have one in mind? Or are the words synonymous?
You know what? That’s actually a really good take
Right, but if chooses too Ukraine will likely join NATO and Russia ends up with another NATO country against its land border.
Invading Ukraine caused 2 more countries on their border to join nato.
I mean, yes, Putin should have never begun the war to begin with. Those countries aren’t going to leave NATO if Russia leaves Ukraine today.
No, he's just making literally all of Eastern Europe more united and bloodthirsty to revenge themselves on past Russian aggression.
The beauty of having Russia as an enemy is that everybody hates them and wants to see them suffer, so, it's easy to get everyone in line to brutalize them without remorse.
It's like when everyone in WW2 turned on the Nazis, and suddenly there was 0 mercy or chance for surrender, it was rip and tear until it was done.
So many eastern Europeans remember, and now that Russia looks so pathetically weak and broken, they're seeing their opportunity to drag every ounce of pain and blood from them.
Honestly, I do feel sorry for Russians. But they brought this on themselves.
Ah, just like Trump united most of the world against him.
Yeah, actually, he did help, as did W.
But nothing near like what Russia did to Eastern Europe. Even Afghanistan didn't have a problem with us compared to the soviets.
And unlike Russia, we're not pathetically weak and being shown as so by getting our shit pushed in by a much weaker neighbor.
See, Russians are paranoid that if they're ever not perceived as strong, everyone will come for them. Ukraine broke the illusion.
It's like Finland in the Winter War, Hitler saw how pathetic Russia was, and invaded. It only worked out because the allies supplied the hell out of them, and even then it was close. China won't be as stupid.
I'm pretty sure war is not a one-sided situation, Vlad.
Look what you make me do to you
Not illegal in Russia... It's just how they show their love.
IMO this is going to backfire. Russia and Putin will look weak. North Korean troops will get a glimpse of the outside and the high tech weaponry of the west. The ones that survive will take that knowledge back with them
The only ones who survive will be the ones who defect.
Ah yes, destroy the people around you in the name of security, using humans you don't even care about.