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I moved from aussie.zone to lemmy.world already to get around federation issues.
Now beehaw.org has stopped federating with lemmy.world π€·ββοΈ
I don't want to have half a dozen accounts so that I can access all the niches of this system, and yet it's beggining to look like the dream of federation is stillborn.
Yea. I feel like Beehaw cutting a lot of the larger general communities out from two of the biggest instances is highlighting early a major hurdle thatβs gonna make the whole fediverse thing difficult to get a lot of people on board with. I donβt want to have to keep making new accounts to access stuff, but likeβ¦ half of the communities I had subscribed to are just gone now because the admins over there decided they donβt want to play with anyone else, I guess.
To be fair, that's how things used to be on the internet. You'd sign up for various forums or message boards with different accounts. Then it all became consolidated under one roof, and message boards started dying. What's happening with reddit now shows the danger of that.
Yeah there will never be a perfect middleway. Either you have a lot of small kingdoms where sometimes some of them go rogue or you got one big one where the Leaders literally rule the whole place.
I think feddiverse will be the better option in the long run after some things get tweaked a bit more.
Beehaw has a code of conduct that everyone can read.
They already said that it is hard to effectively mod because the tooling isn't there yet.
I really wish people would hamper their expectations a bit. With more people coming, there will be more people willing to contribute for tooling etc. These projects are in it's infancy so growing pains will happen.
Facebook for example pays around 500mil per year for moderating and Reddit has free labor for it. But even then, Reddit is dependent on 3rd party tooling for their moderators to effectively moderate. That is a company that exists for 18 years or so?
At one point I expect there to be tooling available to make it easier to target ban people from an specific instance or even defederate specific accounts from an instance.
But if you are a mod team of 4 people without effective tooling then I hope that people understand the predicament they are in and also support the server in their efforts and try to understand their reasoning.
At least you don't have to switch to another platform, you can just make an account on the instance and participate.
I have been toggling between instances and accounts per instance for a good week already and I encounter zero problems with it.
If you just make an account and "activate" the keep yourself logged in checkmark than you can easily switch between instances.
In this stage we are self governing to an extent. The behaviour of people can affect a full instance so everyone has the obligation to think before they post.
Just don't be a dick/troll/spammer/bigot is more then enough to keep federating for your instance enabled.
Yea that sucks.
Now beehaw.org has stopped federating with lemmy.world
Fucking wonderful.
and if i am not mistaken I can't federate with mastodon either. right?
and if I am not mistaken I can federate from here to mastodon as well. right?
you kinda have to pick your poison. some groups will naturally segregate themselves, while others will try to remain open for everything. you have to find an instance that matches the way you engage with stuff. Or you can use multiple instances if need be.
I'm pretty happy here on kbin.social and I doubt I'd leave if some other instance ends up blocking us.
Hopefully large instances keep federating with the small, self-hosted ones. Iβm not sure how to check but I think really small instances still have the most reach.
I self hosted precisely so I can federate with who I want to. It's nice to be able to see posts from multiple instances of (for example) self-hosted on different servers within my own instance, and comment on them directly within my own instance.
The only issues I've had is the comments can take a bit to federate across, but that's to be expected.
If I'm not mistaken both Beehaw and Lemmy.world are pretty big mainstream instances.
Why has Beehaw decided to stop federating with lemmy.world?
The stated reason is that there's too many bad actors coming from here, so it's too hard to moderate:
https://beehaw.org/post/567170
Hopefully (as they state in their post), federation will resume once things settle into a new norm.
Or I forsee beehaw losing relevance as it continues to pursue an isolationist policy.
Thank you!
A scary thing about the Fediverse right now is that some instances have many of the bigger communities. And the owners of the instance can literally shut it down at any moment (or stop federating with you).
And right now there isn't an incentive to keep instances alive.
I like how matrix handles the rooms, you can have aliases on other servers for the same room. This would be also nice for communities. So once there is a server split you at least keep the old content on the other servers simmilar to when one matrix server goes away everyone can still be in the room which is an alias for it.
Ok so apparently it's a pinned post in their community.
Tldr Lemmy.world has open registration, which means more trolls/extremists and they are tired of dealing with them.
about the defederation, this comment about it is great: https://kbin.social/m/main@sh.itjust.works/t/22433/Beehaw-defederated-us#entry-comment-90015
"I think it's easy to take this personally but I think it's more about the moderation tools in Lemmy not being adequate at the moment so this is the best bandaid solution for now. We need to quickly put effort into developing better moderation tools like limiting other servers without fully defederating, limiting specific communities, forcing nsfw on communities/instances, proxying reports to origin servers so admins have better feedback on their instance user's bad behavior, and many other things if we want to prevent defederating like this from being the only option.
I think infighting about this decision and differing moderation styles instead of focusing together on moderation challenges and tooling deficiencies risks tearing the community / federation apart and is counterproductive to the goal of being better than reddit."
there will be growing pains.
What federation issues were you having with aussie.zone? I used that one for a while before creating my own instance.
The issue was the owners choice of not federating with anything nsfw.
By moving to lemmy.world I could still post as much as I wanted to !australia@aussie.zone AND upvote boobs.
It goes both ways though, if beehaw isolates itself enough the rest of the fediverse will make its own communities that effectively replace the ones we lost from them defederating.
As of now they're blocking 387 communities according to this
I somewhat went through that. Signed up on one instance cause it seemed a cool science based one to check out but then realized that if I wanted to make a community for anything else, I couldn't do it there
Ah interesting point, never thought of it but you're right, in this regard with lemmy it is kind of important where you have your account. Good point! I had the feeling that with lemmy it really doesn't matter where you have your account but this is a very valid point.
If you don't plan on running communities it's a non issue but otherwise, yeah
Welcome to the fedoraverse
Why did you post this to selfhosted? lol
that i just realized, lol
on kbin there was a long period of no federation and so I think we kinda ended up with this "kbin is kbin and then there's this other stuff" mindset. I think it helped ease a lot of us into this fediverse stuff lol. the analogy I use is email :) why pick yahoovs gmail vs protonmail? same idea.
Email, the true OG federated protocol.
Pretty sure that was Usenet
I agree it's somewhat complex for the average user, but I 'm questioning whether they really need to understand. I subscribed to kbin, started using it like reddit. Federation is now enabled, too, but if I hadn't seen a post about it, I wouldn't even have noticed. The cool thing is you don't need to care where the content is if you don't want to, you still can enjoy the platform ang get a lot out of it.
Or lib.lgbt!
More seriously itβs basically all the same. Just depends what @ you want after your username.
I would say that it depends on that and on if you want to use the local feed or what you want to see there.
But pretty much that's it.
And it's hard to know better in advance, but quite important is that you also choose your (instance) moderators β the people who decide in the end what you're allowed to see and say.
The sign up process is a bit non-standard, but I have mostly browsed via app (Mlem) and it makes the cross-community sub and commenting fairly seamless.
The instance you sign up on doesn't really matter. For technical people, the server you sign in on, can be important, but for the average user it doesn't. In fact, you could make an account on mastodon.social and comment on this very thread. That's pretty much the goal of federation.
This feels disingenous to say. Each community has its own rules and culture, which you may agree or disagree with. Beyond that, there's the matter of trust as the instance admin holds everything on their server. This isn't even getting into the whole mess of defederation. like with Beehaw, who seems intent on forming an isolative culture despite having some of the largest communities on the site.
I believe it will improve over time as the Fediverse matures and grows to handle larger loads and less techy people, but I think saying that to people will do more harm than good. A lot of the newer people have been reasonably freaking out in response to losing access to several large communities they frequented because they were told "instance doesn't matter", when quite frankly it does at the moment.
Entirely fair, we are in the midst of significant drama between the reddit burndown, and the infancy of the lemmy platform as a whole. For someone wanting to talk to people, and get their feet wet in the fediverse, I think its reasonable to say that the server doesn't matter. Once you have used the platform, and know what you want then exploring the options is highly encouraged. The exact circumstances of server federation will absolutely change, probably a lot, in the near future.
I treat it akin to someone saying "I want to learn how to play guitar." I think reasoanble advice is get a cheap used guitar and start learning cords. Once you know if you plan on sticking with it more than a few weeks, go right ahead and start looking at better equipment. I don't think expecting someone at this stage to start taking musical theory is the best advice. Maybe that is a weak argument, but I don't think its entirely wrong.
Nah, I get it. I expect it to be a much better situation as the platform matures, but right now it's really hard. Just like Mastodon, Lemmy will have to go through a ton of growing pains to meet the demands of a rapidly growing userbase. Hopefully we as a community can make this a much better situation for newbies going forward.
Unless your instance blocks or is blocked by that other instance, which is exactly what beehaw did to lemmy.world and sh.ithust.works, and exactly what I saw happen a lot on Mastodon.
Ultimately, yes, the server admins have final on what content their users see. Not too different than mods within a community. A user, should they want to, can just make an account on a different server though. Should the user not agree with the content moderation of their original server, and can even migrate all their user data with them most of the time.
AFAIK in ActivityPub everything has an ID (which is actually a URL) that ties an Object/Link to the server it was created on, old things will always live on your old server.
So there's nothing like hosted instances are using resources, and that can vary?
The server that hosts your account, and the server that hosts the content are independent. They all speak the same language and talk to each other regardless of where they are. So if the server hosting a thread is overloaded, then comments might take a bit to load, but you can still post on another thread on another server no problem. Eventually they all sync up. If that's what you mean?