this post was submitted on 19 Jul 2023
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I just want to make a counterpoint here. I actually don’t think most spiritually inclined people have a need to fill an emotional hole, for many it can be more of a celebration of the big questions which are still unanswered and all the things that swirl around those questions. It’s not a gap in objective knowledge, or a desire to placate uncertainty, but more of a “hey….i wonder what THAT is, well…even if i never know for sure what it is I still find it cool/interesting/helpful!”. It’s a human experience a lot of people have, to feel moved by or affected by things, and it’s also a normal human thing to want nothing to do with any of it. Both are fine. Spirituality is not a threat to objectivity or science or knowledge except when people are using it in unhealthy social and interpersonal ways - which is a serious concern with a lot to talk about there - but it’s not that spirituality or belief itself that is the problem, it’s the social dynamics around it. Atheism and science and politics can be misused just as harmfully (though I recognize that christianity specifically has a wild amount of clout in some countries that keeps the social impact of that misuse from ever being balanced.)
Oh, interesting point! I'm actually on board with celebrating uncertainty and accepting that we will never know certain things. Not sure why this needs to be labeled as spirituality though?
On the other hand, have a look at the spirituality community on Beehaw that actually seems to already be a theat to objectivity/science. I agree that spirituality isn't necessarily producing this but I still cannot see how it would be beneficial? But this could just be my autistic mind trying to unnecessarily rationalize everything ;)
I don’t know, I disagree with the idea that science and objectivity and spirituality/religion always are necessarily in conflict. To me, they just cover different areas of a person’s life, they’re different thought processes. If it’s not beneficial to you, it doesn’t have to be something that you engage with or ever think about for yourself, but other people will and do because humans are all different. I think it’s fine to not understand it, or to privately find it a little annoying, and it’s definitely fine to want to avoid it and stay away from it if it makes you uncomfortable, but it sort of comes across like a dig at other people’s internal subjective experiences when you say that all spirituality is bad or anti-science or problematic. I think that’s a misunderstanding. The things that exist outside of measurable facts (and often alongside them, not against them) can still have value, even if you personally do not feel inspired by them.
That's all very well spoken. Science (the 'hard sciences') do not have the answers to everything. The scientific method is a tool (like a shovel or pick axe) that we use to investigate our surroundings. There are massive mysteries that exist inside this reality. Science, religion, philosophy only scratch the surface of this grand mystery that we all experience.
Sure, science cannot and will never give answers to everything and that's fine. We will never know all there is to know. But I would strongly disagree that religion offers any answers to the 'grand mystery' at all. Because religion is not about looking at the world and trying to figure anything out. Religion is using the unknown to project own beliefs onto it. At best, religion that tries to actually figure things out is really philosophy. Religion itself is not a tool at all to figure anything out about the outside world.
I fail to see how objectivity and religion/spirituality are not in conflict when the latter are based on one's own projections onto the unknown? Sure, this isn't directly affecting me, but the moment religious or spiritual people take decisions or actions that affect other people, this can involve me. Think of abortion or other ethical debates. Or even morality, which is a huge pile of shit all thought up by religious people from their own projections. This is affecting me in my daily life, because I get confronted by a sexist, transphobic, homophobic worldview all stemming in huge parts from religious teachings. Even if the people marginalizing me aren't religious, they still got their morals from our religion-indoctrinated society. This has been a huge and often deadly undertaking of so many people to get rid of these morals and to don't judge others.
We all project stuff onto others or onto the unknown. I just want us to be honest about it and that we try to be transparent about it. I'm totally fine if a person says that they believe in something superstitious, god, etc as long as they are aware that this is a product of their own mind and that they don't value others differently because of it. I think in the end it boils down to values (which is the basis of morals I guess). If your values are informed by your own religious/spiritual belief, then this seems problematic to me because it will affect people negatively. But as long as a person can separate their own belief from their values, I'm fine with this.