this post was submitted on 27 Feb 2024
1260 points (94.0% liked)

Microblog Memes

5787 readers
2822 users here now

A place to share screenshots of Microblog posts, whether from Mastodon, tumblr, ~~Twitter~~ X, KBin, Threads or elsewhere.

Created as an evolution of White People Twitter and other tweet-capture subreddits.

Rules:

  1. Please put at least one word relevant to the post in the post title.
  2. Be nice.
  3. No advertising, brand promotion or guerilla marketing.
  4. Posters are encouraged to link to the toot or tweet etc in the description of posts.

Related communities:

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

You should not confuse capitalism with markets, and you should not confuse markets with working together.

Consider the family unit, it is doubtful that everyone cooks their own single serve or rotates meal duty evenly. Humans can specialise without capital.

Capital is what enables someone to have someone else cook for them, who then has to go cook their own meal. The one with capital isn't even doing anything for the cook, they are simply taking money that someone working at a widgt factory they own made and giving it to the cook. In so doing they appropriate both the widget factory worker's meal and the cooks!

you can even have market exchange without capitalism. In the above situation if we remove the capitalist the widget maker could give the cook widgets for a meal. Or even currency from selling widgets for a meal. Materially the capitalist contributes nothing, their role is entirely created by private property law.

[–] tkk13909@sopuli.xyz 1 points 8 months ago (2 children)

I may have misread the end of your comment but are you implying that a market can exist without private property?

[–] jlou@mastodon.social 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

A market can exist without private property by having capital be collectively owned and continuously up for auction to the highest bidder. Basically, each holder of means of production self-assess the price at which they would be willing to turn over that capital to another party, they pay a lease payment based on a percentage of that self-assessed price, and if someone comes along willing to pay that self-assessed price, require that they turn it over to that party

[–] PRUSSIA_x86@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Maybe I'm not getting it, bu that just sounds like capitalism with extra steps.

[–] jlou@mastodon.social 2 points 8 months ago

In what I described, the differences are:

  1. Buyers can compel current holders to transfer the asset to them if they pay enough. This reduces the power of capital holders.
  2. All self-assessed prices of all capital are public
  3. A large portion of the value of capital flows into a collective fund

@microblogmemes

[–] naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Not implying, outright stating!

Colloquially private property means like "stuff I have exclusive or near exclusive rights to" but that's not what we mean when we talk economic systems. Something like your clothing, or that neat pot you made is personal property. Private property is a legal construct wherein someone is allowed to claim ownership over means of production, like "this field is mine, it doesn't matter if I'm using it or not, I have the legal right to control what happens there".

So an example of a market without private property might be something like:

  • a field is held in Commons by a town
  • a farming collective submits to work it
  • they grow some potatoes
  • the community recognises their right to the fruits of their labour
  • they go to potato-lack town and sell some potatoes

Obvs that's simplified but it's a rough sketch of how farming used to work! you earned a right to use land by using it directly and what you grew on it was yours to do as you see fit (often a maniac with a horse and sword would take some portion first though. Because they're just better than you or whatever)

[–] tkk13909@sopuli.xyz 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

So what changes personal property to a "means of production"?