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Elden Ring.
Waited all year until it was on sale as I thought it might not be my cup of tea, tried not to let my prejudice get the better of me but felt it was such a drag I had to put it down.
It was recommended to me as I like Zelda but it couldn't be further from the things I like about it: innovation, fluid gameplay, freedom, puzzles, multiple ways to tackle enemies.
I don't think it's the difficulty as I play lots of roguelike and bullet hell games. My main gripe is the clunkiness of the combat to the point it's unfair. Like you don't really stand a chance through reactions alone, you have to learn the patterns and hitboxes of enemies so that you know in advance when to react.
Also I kept hearing how good the graphics are but I think they're kinda average although the actual art style is quite nice.
Any suggestions on how I might enjoy it would be much appreciated as I haven't got very far.
Whoever thought you might like Elden Ring because you like Zelda is not a true friend. There's really not much similar with the gameplay loop.
You're right that the gameplay is more about learning and recognizing patterns of enemies and adjusting to them so if that doesn't appeal to you you're probably not going to like it. With that being said though, your first soulslike is always the hardest and if you stick with it they are very rewarding to play once you know what to expect.
Cheers, probably just not for me then.
It sounds like you probably had the wrong expectations of what the game was going in. These games can be frustrating under the best of circumstances, but are very much "tough but fair."
If you choose to give it another shot, look up a build. The weapon scaling system is a little obtuse and if you're pumping levels ups into str and using a dex weapon you'll do no damage. Whatever you do, put a lot of points into Vigor. Get it to 40 at least after you have the stats to equip your weapon to increase your health because defense is mostly cosmetic in these games. Other than that, you get i-frames on your roll and the game rewards aggressive play so learn to roll into attacks and not away if you're not using a shield.
I expected it to be difficult with a possibility of not enjoying it but seemed pretty popular so thought I'd give it a go.
Will give your suggestions a shot but I find everything about it obtuse to be honest. To me good game design lowers you gently into mastering the controls and ramping up difficulty, not just chucking you in at the deep end with confusing menus so it's on the player to look everything up.
Dropping you into the deep end and expecting you to find your own way is kind of a hallmark of the series. Almost every game starts with a basic overview of the controls and then a difficult boss you are expected to lose to. Even the controls overview is entirely skipable because they are in the form of messages on the ground. In a way this teaches you about how you interact with the world because the storytelling is almost entirely environmental. Going against this would upset a massive fanbase because this is a very well established series at this point.
At a certain point in the story, you can respec all your stats. If you mess up or want to change anything - this happens after the second major story boss. The only thing that you truly need to know about to be successful is weapon scaling. All weapons scale based on a specific stat, ranging from E-S with E being the weakest scaling and A/S being strong scaling. The number on the left when you're in your equip menu is the base weapon damage based on its level (normal weapons can be level 1-25 and special weapons 1-10. You unlock the ability to upgrade weapons pretty early in the story) and the number on the right is the additional damage you'll have added based on a combination of the weapon's scaling and your own stats. You can be quite successful just by understanding these two mechanics because they will make up a good portion of your damage.
Since you mentioned Zelda originally, there is a reason this meme exists:
After I died for the 327th time within the first few hours of playing, I ditched it. Haven't been back since. The gameplay is really cumbersome, blocking and dodging are hit or miss, and I've been jumping and rolling around all day like some unmedicated ADHD kid on speed trying to get one hit in that causes minimal damage, while every enemy counterattack goes near critical.
I'm not against a step learning curve or anything, but Elden Ring was a major frustration.
I mean this in a constructive way: you're literally playing it wrong. Elden Ring is a Souls game, which (in terms of gameplay) is the complete opposite of a hack & slash button masher. There's almost no animation cancelling, so once you press a button, you're committed to the outcome and have to wait for it to finish. So if you miss a heavy swing with a giant 25 kg greataxe, you'll be wide open for the enemies to smash you. The game requires self-control to make every input matter.
Once you acclimate though, I think the combat feels very good. It's responsive (once you accept the fact that you can't cancel actions), flexible, and the hitboxes are way more accurate than most games.
But don't think you have to master it all at once. The enemies are tough, but you don't have to fight fair. Sneak and backstab if you can, soften them up with arrows or ranged spells, debuff them with throwables, summon some spirit ash helpers, use the environment to land attacks from the high ground, stack up poison and bleed effects, use a shield to block-counter, use your weapon abilities to help break enemy poise, etc etc. You can create entire builds around any of these but of course there's power in combinations.
Souls games are honestly just pretty rhythm games. The queues are obscured and the timing can be quite silly, but it’s the same core gameplay.
Nice to see it hasn't changed since Dark Souls. Thought I might have been missing out.
I think it sounds to me like it just isn't your thing. What you're describing as a frustration is what I love about Elden Ring, you have to figure out every enemy and learn their patterns in order to succeed so every enemy is like it's own little puzzle to solve. There's no secret to avoid that part of the game besides maybe building INT and just avoiding fights which does not sound fun tbh
This. I think people who enjoy it see every enemy as a puzzle. Even developing your character is a bit of a puzzle, figuring out what stats suit the weapons you like and the play style you're aiming for. Conversely, Zelda is incredibly simple and boring to me. Most of the fights are boop boss on the head 3 times, or throw their own bombs back at them 3 times. The only Zelda I enjoyed was the first one.
I don't think the bosses are meant to be the puzzles in Zelda, the non-fighting parts of the dungeons are. I'm not really a fan of Zelda games though so I'm not fighting their corner here.
I don't find Elden Ring puzzling, but maybe I haven't played enough. From what I've seen so far it's more trial and error and than figuring stuff out, which I find boring.
Skill trees in general I think are bit of a cop out in most action games, let alone having to decipher them. I'll reach for 4X games like Stellaris or Civ if I want to sit and think about how stats affect outcomes.
Yeah boss battles are usually pretty easy in Zelda, as you say, 3 hits and done most of the time. They're traditionally about getting the player to master the technique or item you've just unlocked. Have you tried running straight to Ganon if BotW or tackling The Depths in TotK though? I don't think either of those tasks could be considered simple.
Surprised you only like the first one, the games are constantly innovating in terms of gameplay and design, but the first is a pretty standard affair. A lot of the time the simplicity is what enables the fun, fluid gameplay as with most games Nintendo put out.
If I want a challenge I'll play online shooters or pretty much any roguelike where when I die I don't come away feeling it was unfair. Tbh I think I just don't enjoy modern action RPGs in general rather than it being a specific Elden Ring criticism. I find they try to cater to lots of mechanics that other games implement better but fully aware that's an unpopular opinion.
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I have not tried those things in BotW and TotK. I got to the water temple in Ocarina of Time and got bored, which I heard was common - sincerely tried to beat it because my childhood friends love the game and were excited for me to get through it. Played 10 mins of Majora's mask and BotW. Watched a bunch of videos of BotW and the new game of people doing cool stuff with bombs and gliders. Just not for me I guess, but I totally see the appeal of them.
I can definitely see your point about modern action RPGs catering to lots of mechanics that other games do better and the genre is saturated now with different souls-likes that lack any kind of innovation but I guess they are safe to make due to their popularity.
Main point in enjoying soulslikes is the approach. Modern action RPGs are very fast paced, very direct in their approach "hit A - enemy dies - get dopamine".
To make it work, slow down. Treat every enemy as a real threat, not filler between bosses. Pretending they are all real players and not bots might help. Keep your distance, bait out several attacks, see how they behave, carefully close in and make your move. Don't get greedy on the offence and only attack when the enemy opens and then break the distance again.
Also as others mentioned, game makes you commit to any actions you take. When you attack the enemy, take responsibility of every button press. If you start mashing, the game punishes you fast and hard.
I don't have the best reaction speeds, but I was able to steamroll most of the bosses under 10 tries, so the game is definitely not the "die until you memorize the moveset" type. If you play patiently and carefully build up your character it is definitely possible to tackle most threats on first sight.
Edit: Also, if you're on PC I don't mind giving you a hand sometime and playing together a little
Yeah think you're right, I like fast-paced games where I can enter flow state quicker and I never was one for grinding up a skill tree in order to progress unless the grinding itself is fun/fluid.
I prefer actively attacking enemies with a bit of running away and dodging where required as opposed to patiently dodging waiting for an opening to attack.
Thanks for the offer, I would have taken you up on that, unfortunately I have it on Xbox, not PC.
I'm a diehard FromSotware fan but even I was a little let down by it. I got a lot more enjoyment from co-op and PvP so I ended up finishing the actual game after 300+ hours lmao
I've beat all the other Souls games so dying hundreds of times didn't bother me... But for some reason I didn't feel compelled at all to actually progress in the game
Yep, Elden Ring (and all soulslike games) are basically just guitar hero with a shitty interface. And way more grinding.
It's not actually challenging just memorization. Elden Ring is basically like speedrunners being able to play Mario with their eyes closed.
Weirdly I like Guitar Hero, but think that's mainly down to enjoying the songs and playing with friends. Scraping through Cliffs of Dover on expert was enough Eden Ring for me lol.