this post was submitted on 19 Dec 2023
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chapotraphouse
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I agree with you as a Guatemalan. I've always considered our countries part of the West and think it's a little patronizing how richer Western nations don't consider us Western. The diaspora like to push this idea that we're majority indigenous and that indigenous cultures are more prevalent than they actually are.
We're kind of like the Balkans. They go on and off as to whether or not we're included as Western or not.
Don't you think that if your people are treated as second-class citizens in core Western countries, that you might actually NOT be Western in the eyes of anyone who actually cares about these terms?
Like, why can't you take the hint? Or have you really not figured it out yet?
The patronization is right on cue
How is observing reality patronizing? Why do you be want to considered "Western" so bad? Why can't you just be happy being Latin American?
person a: "you're dumb"
person b: "wow I've always noticed that my friend is so patronizing to me?"
person c: "uh maybe they're not actually your friend then"
person b: "wow your patronization is right on cue"
You are person b. I am c.
It is patronizing when you consider agreeing with your position to be
Like yeah, thanks buddy, I'll go with our Honduran comrade in trying to remind Hexbear that latin american people should be taken as having their own thoughts and motivations
You're free to have whatever thoughts you want, just don't expect to be treated like an actual Westerner when you enter an actual Western country
*unless you're really pale and can speak with an American accent. Then you will be!
The shared cultural heritage between latin american and "western in the strictest sense" countries seems to be weaponized by certain groups within latin american societies. Because of this, I don't think we should completely disregard what our comrade from Honduras points out.
I made an effort post with a more detailed account of this view over at /c/effort but this is the bottom line.
So because compradors weaponize those western values instilled via colonialism, they should embrace those values? Define themselves by it? I don't know how you see the relationship of compradors re-inforcing white supremacy and "western values" and don't buck them off and reject them and seek to destroy them. Instead, you argue online with western leftists who want to see the west destroyed? Instead you embrace those colonizer's values as the TRUE IDENTITY of your country? WTF.
You are inverting everything and glorifying colonization. This "honduran comrade" is essentially making the exact same arguments as his comprador masters want him to, fully internalizing the colonizing values and making it part of their identity.
Not really, zed. I dont think it should be embraced as our identity. I just think it should not come across as surprising that a Honduran considers Honduras a western country. That it would be more productive to point out that class relations within Honduras supersede such cultural ties, instead of antagonizing him with how much a northern european would not consider him western.
I also dont think when people from Latam understand their countries as western are they unaware of the reality of colonization and exploitation by the global core. Conflation of western and global north and central economies is not as common within Latam as it seems to be tô you guys from other regions of The globe.
Please do not accuse me of glorifying colonization. I dont think my post allows that reading
If they are a communist and understand history of colonialism then they wouldn't see themselves as western nor would they want to see themselves as western. They would see their country as "westernized" by outside, imperialist forces - and they must decolonize and "de-westernize"
It's not "antagonizing" someone to just plainly and clearly state the truth of their peripheral status and that the imperial core would eat them alive in a second if they felt like it. Any allegiance or camaraderie they feel with "the west" is entirely one-sided and in their own mind and they must be disabused of this fantasy. Pathetic for any communist to really hold these views, makes it sound like they would be little different from their comprador masters in practice - trying to suck up to the west for membership still, still being good house slaves and running dogs. I only trust people who hate the West, want to distance themselves from it, destroy it, and purge it from their societies. Wanting to be included in "the West" to me is basically class treason, especially to start making white supremacist adjacent argument about how "The West" means Ancient Greece, and there's nothing inherently racist about the Greeks so modern day "West" also isn't racist just another grouping of peoples.
This is chauvinistic delusion that any communist should be ashamed to think. Then to try and shame us for being racist when they have so internalized Western white supremacy is another layer on top.
Ok, let's disengage
I'm palestinian honduran so I wouldn't even bother trying to argue with the few people I'd run into that seriously consider race what makes someone western. I still don't see why it matters so much to american leftists tho. is bashing on the west too awkward for them if you include poorer countries in the americas and balkans? I don't get the point in bashing anyway I'm not gonna feel guilty for being born in the west
Leftists have already figured out the difference between these regions, if you're curious. The Balkans are peripheral Europe. https://hexbear.net/post/1385667
Western can be a misnomer like global south. Half the time when I say NATO I'm mentally including Japan and Australia and occupied Korea. Japan and occupied Korea are pretty damn Western now depending on how you mean that.
Yeah, real difference in vocabulary vibes on this exchange
those "few people", aka the entirety of the population who actually cares about this shit lmao. Including the cunning ones who pretend to consider you guys "western" just for optics, and then support every standard right-wing American position
Nobody considers Christian, Portugese-speaking Angola to be "Western". Race is literally half the criteria.
uhhh...because it matters to american rightists? If you spent a few months in America in a rural area with an Islamic name I think you'd learn pretty quick
"Western" = politically western European, and white
Russia isn't politically western so they don't fit
Poland used to not be western, but now is
Parts of the Balkans are part of the west (certainly not in the core though)
Japan and Korea are rich and vassal states of NATO, but are not white
America is technically mixed race, but the average white American is 98.5% white (and western european to boot), unlike any "white" person in any Latin country where even the least mixed people are still 20% Native admixed
Nothing in Latin America is Western in any sense other than cardinal directions. Yes, you're all Christian and part Spanish/Portu, but any "camaraderie" you see there is a completely one-way street--the people in Europe do NOT feel that way mutually about you, even if they don't get as violent about it as in the US. You could MAYBE make an exception for Argentina and Uruguay because it seems a lot of them (still not all) are close enough on racial criteria to "pass" visually. Places like Mexico and Colombia will never be western, because you can't be part of a group if your people get hatecrimed on sight (with no repercussions) in said countries .
i’ve been to rural america with an “islamic name” lol. you people are crazy
apparently not for long enough?
there's some Indian American kid (same skin tone as the average Colombian or Peruvian) who got put in a chokehold at his school in Texas and then suspended for 3 days while his bully got 1 day (no he didn't even fight back)
this happened in suburban Texas btw, I know people whose friends have been killed in rural areas of the plains states.
They don’t consider you part of their racist white supremacist club, that’s a fact. Why do you want to be in it so bad and consider it offensive when they don’t include you? It should be an honor to be separate from the West, the West TM is fascist scum