In some of the music communities I'm in the content creators are already telling their userbase to go follow them on threads. They're all talking about some kind of beef between Elon and Mark and the possibility of a boxing match... Mark was right to call the people he's leaching off of fucking idiots.

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[–] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sometimes I even meet software developers who don’t fully understanding those topics.

"Even" software developers? That's kind of a weird thing to say. Programming as a discipline is far broader and deeper than most people realize (and that includes software developers!). Knowledge in one limited specialty does not translate automatically into knowledge in a different specialty and, indeed, can actively interfere with another domain without intensive retraining. (For a concrete example of this, just look at the abominations made in "embedded"^1^ programming by people coming at it from writing Yet Another CRUD-backed Web App.)

So it's absolutely possible for someone who's a real whiz with making web app front ends to have a very hazy grasp of security and privacy. It's a peripherally-related discipline at best.

^1^ "Scare quotes" used because I don't view what amounts to a PC running Linux in a funky form factor as meaningfully "embedded".

[–] Freesoftwareenjoyer@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I just expect programmers to know more about software. They should know those things at least on a basic level. They should be the ones to educate people about it, because otherwise who will do it?

If software developers don't understand what end-to-end encryption is, what hope can we have that an average person will understand it? I just don't know how we can make progress if even technical people don't know technology well enough.

[–] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You missed the part about how large software is.

I could (and probably have worked!) my entire professional life in domains you've never once caught a glimpse of using kit you wouldn't recognize. To me it's trivially obvious how to, say, debug an SPI bus timing problem where you might not even know what an SPI bus is without looking it up in Wikipedia first.

(I guarantee you that within 3m of you there are orders of magnitude more SPI connections than any form of encrypted connections.)

Now the only reason I know what end-to-end encryption is and why it's important is because I took a short break in my mainline career and worked on PKI for about six years. (I then ragequit commodity software and went back to actual software engineering, but that's a different story.) Had I not had that experience I could likely have made some guesses as to what E2EE entailed, but I certainly wouldn't have understood immediately why this was a critical feature.

Really, software is a FAR LARGER domain than you think. Hell, it's far larger than I think, probably, and I think it's ten times larger than you think. 😉

[–] Freesoftwareenjoyer@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

You are right that it's a huge field, but I'm not saying that we should be familiar with all of it. I'm saying that since we rely on software every day, there are a few concepts that every person should understand on a basic level. That knowledge would help them make better decisions and probably the world would be better if most people had it. Software developers should also understand those few concepts, but perhaps on a bit deeper level than an average person would.

A person can have privacy without knowing what SPI is, but it's very unlikely for them have it or keep it long term if they don't know what Free Software is. What you do requires deep knowledge of the hardware, which an average person doesn't need to have. But they should know what cryptocurrencies and AI are, since those technologies are slowly becoming a part of our lives.

I don't blame average people or software engineers for not knowing those things. But I think something went wrong in our society if people don't understand very important concepts that impact our daily lives and which are mostly decades old. This proves that we can't keep up with modern technology even on a basic level. Don't you think that's bad?

[–] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m saying that since we rely on software every day, there are a few concepts that every person should understand on a basic level.

Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong before anything software-related I'd put knowledge of fundamental statistics in the queue for things people deal with on a daily basis that they should understand at a basic level. It's one of the most critical skills a person can have in modern life and it's one that almost nobody (including almost all programmers) has any kind of understanding of. If they did have a better understanding of it, to quote the Great Sage Equalling Heaven:

That knowledge would help them make better decisions and probably the world would be better if most people had it.

😉

And that's just the beginning of the list. I'd also put basic psychology, basic marketing, basic civics even ahead of any degree of software knowledge. Knowing marketing, for example, wouldn't cause someone to be fooled to the point of saying something like this:

But they should know what cryptocurrencies and AI are, since those technologies are slowly becoming a part of our lives.

But gentle snark aside:

But I think something went wrong in our society if people don’t understand very important concepts that impact our daily lives and which are mostly decades old.

Try tens of thousands of years old. You make it sound like the problem is technology. The problem is the same as it's always been: people. A better understanding of people, of their motivations, of the tricks they use to further those motivations, etc. is what makes you better able to manage life and society. Understanding the tricks of marketers and advertisers (even before those were words in human language!) is what makes you understand things like "hype cycles" and "if you haven't paid, you're not the customer". You're focusing on a single channel of abuse. There are MILLIONS of channels of abuse. Learning why people find said channels and how/why they exploit them is a far more valuable skill.

Oh, and statistics. You need that too. You have NO idea just how bad we are at those and just how important that knowledge is for spotting grifters, liars, and other scum.

[–] Freesoftwareenjoyer@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes, there are many things that people should be taught at school. Technology is just one area. All of the things you said are also very important, but it doesn't make what I said invalid.

Knowing marketing, for example, wouldn’t cause someone to be fooled to the point of saying something like this:

But they should know what cryptocurrencies and AI are, since those technologies are slowly becoming a part of our lives.

Fooled by what exactly? A distributed ledger or machine learning? I think it's a simple fact that those technologies are becoming more popular.

You make it sound like the problem is technology.

The post is about privacy and software. It's important for people to be educated in other areas as well, but they weren't the topic of this discussion. So there was no point for me to mention them.

You’re focusing on a single channel of abuse.

I make software, so I talk about software. I'm not an expert in the other areas that you mentioned.

[–] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I make software, so I talk about software. I’m not an expert in the other areas that you mentioned.

You're so close, and yet so far, from grasping the point with this pair of sentences.

[–] Freesoftwareenjoyer@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Ah, I see. So you are an expert in psychology, marketing and statistics. That is truly amazing. It's completely irrelevant to the topic of our discussion (which is about privacy and software), but very cool.