this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2023
78 points (100.0% liked)
Programming
17450 readers
59 users here now
Welcome to the main community in programming.dev! Feel free to post anything relating to programming here!
Cross posting is strongly encouraged in the instance. If you feel your post or another person's post makes sense in another community cross post into it.
Hope you enjoy the instance!
Rules
Rules
- Follow the programming.dev instance rules
- Keep content related to programming in some way
- If you're posting long videos try to add in some form of tldr for those who don't want to watch videos
Wormhole
Follow the wormhole through a path of communities !webdev@programming.dev
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Wow I pretty much disagree with everything you said haha. E.g. packaging/venv in python is absolute hell compared to something like cargo/crates in Rust. Try to manage a large project in python and you'll likely revise your answer (if you actually know all the nice alternatives out there...)
In my experience managing a large project comes down to having a consistent process/standards and enough experienced engineers in that language. Remove that and every single language leads to abominations.
I agree, that having a consistent process and good engineers is definitely most important, but a language itself definitely can guide you in the right direction. I think ironically Rust and C++ are good vice versa examples (unrelated to their target area, which happens to be the same (systems programming)), C++ has zillion ways to program in, finding the right and best way is definitely no easy task and requires massive experience in all kinds of paradigms, while Rust generally promotes you to do things in one/the "right" (IMHO) way, otherwise the borrow-checker annoys you all the time.
Yeah but a "good language" isn't some obscure, "better on the paper" language or some popular one, but one that has a large community, and not only in amateur circles.
That's why C/C++ is so hated but also so much used. Python is way easier but has the userbase and the libraries. If you don't need the speed, or memory management, you can do about anything with python.
Maybe Rust will take the place one day, or typescript, or kotlin, or JavaScript, or "insert new killer language" ...
Python is used by the research community, and by a whole slew of companies since a long time. You have a problem? You'll find the solution quickly.
Dealing with large projects? Go with C/C++ then ;-) I mean it's all about architecture.
And yet another time I disagree with pretty much all you've said.
And this thinking is why we have sloppy running UI with 10000 times the power of devices compared to say 20 years ago (where UI was not sloppy...).
Why sacrifice performance, language ergonomics(!) and write something in python for production? I get why (AI) researchers are using it because it's easy to quickly hack stuff together, and prototype stuff.
But as soon as it's something larger with a bigger team you want to have static typing. because working in a team is pain in the ass with a untyped languages á la javascript or python. Also think about something like IDE tooling, it's so much more comfortable to use rust-analyzer (which I think really is generally the best LSP by now), compared to all the python tooling I tried (and that was a lot...).
Sorry, but you sound a little bit unexperienced, I really would suggest learning a few more programming languages, it's not "all" about architecture. The languages/paradigms kind of suggest how you should layout your architecture, e.g. OOP by using classes (unfortunately often promoting the IMHO anti-pattern inheritance) , or functional by composing everything together without side-effects in functions.
C++ is absolutely the last language I would choose nowadays, it's an absolute techdebt mess, promoting all kinds of anti patterns IMHO (I've got roughly 10+ years of experience in it, for context). You really have to have a real good discipline and idea how to write programs to make a reasonable choice in architecture. And if you do it's ugly as hell anyways (using iterators for example is pain in the ass although you should do that). I just default to Rust, it's so much more comfortable than C++ in pretty much every aspect, way better designed language...
Really learning new languages also helps thinking about architectures/laying out your code in other languages, and generally helps improving your technical skill.